Let's All Be Terribly Civil and Sip Tea and Talk About Europe

[Redmaus]

Sorry, I did write a response to this a few days ago but my browser crashed. I couldn't be bothered rewriting it until now[...]

[...] Of course, assimilating would be much easier if you are migrating between European countries, since the cultures have so much in common.

I read the wall of text, and I could not agree more. Whenever arguing with other people of my age, they seem to associate nationalism as "hitler". Millennials seem to think that border control is evil and we should accept everyone. Europe has such a beautiful culture and history, I would hate to see it go away in the next decade or two.

Much of what you said is what I have said already. Such as the fact that many of these people are not seeking refuge from war, but simply economic migrants. I have been reading a few German articles about the situation in Europe, so I only know as much as the internet can tell me. It really looks like these grown men in their 20-30s are treated like innocent children incapable of bad intentions. Quite sickening how some of these migrants can get away with something as terrifying as sexual assault and get away with a slap on the wrist.

Some of these people that are Islamic extremists, used to violence everyday, or just plain savages cannot integrate. It's like the idea of deportation is evil or wrong. I am not sure how else a nation would deal with such a problem. If these people need help, they should go the nearest safe country. Not be encouraged to sink their own ships for economic incentives.

Multiculturalism sounds good in theory, but when you really think about the way it is implemented its really the end to all culture. The idea of native peoples being stricken of their heritage, for everyone to share beliefs. If every country completely embraced multiculturalism, no country would have any culture of their own. Nations should keep their native cultures.

How do you think liberals would react if Europeans began going to Middle Eastern countries and making them all learn about Napoleon and European history? While at the same time forcing them to change everything about their country to welcome and adapt to Christianity? I don't think they would approve. The same thing is happening to Europe, just the other way around.

Photekq is right, people need to assimilate not just integrate. But that is not happening. [/rant]

[sinusoid]

Multiculturalism sounds good in theory, but when you really think about the way it is implemented its really the end to all culture. The idea of native peoples being stricken of their heritage, for everyone to share beliefs. If every country completely embraced multiculturalism, no country would have any culture of their own. Nations should keep their native cultures.

'Nations native cultures' is what you see here and now, during your lifetime. In practice, a culture is a dynamic and everchanging entity.
There was a lot of cross cultural osmosis going on throughout history, even more so nowadays, with internets, communications, and what not. It is a natural process, and it's not a problem.
The problem starts when you end up with a primitive and dominant culture on your territory that won't assimilate, won't blend in, won't respect your own culture, just sit there, claim superiority, and make demands.

I wouldn't have a problem with the immigration wave if these people were Asians, Russians, Americans... or even Australians, but the boats would have to be more sturdy I guess...

Btw, since the Lego thread was taken over, would it be proper if we moved some of the ABS discussion here?
I've heard that there were works to make PLA more temperature- and atmosphere resistant.
But I'm really curious what they're gonna come up with. I think it's not as much about creating the polymer, but optimizing it for 'feels', manufacturing and injection molding.

[Redmaus]

'Nations native cultures' is what you see here and now, during your lifetime. In practice, a culture is a dynamic and everchanging entity.
There was a lot of cross cultural osmosis going on throughout history, even more so nowadays, with internets, communications, and what not. It is a natural process, and it's not a problem.
The problem starts when you end up with a primitive and dominant culture on your territory that won't assimilate, won't blend in, won't respect your own culture, just sit there, claim superiority, and make demands.

Correct. I couldn't agree more. I didn't want to tire my hands out too much by going so in depth. I just got the SSK back out and Membrane BS is heavier than capacitative.

I wouldn't have a problem with the immigration wave if these people were Asians, Russians, Americans... or even Australians, but the boats would have to be more sturdy I guess...

Btw, since the Lego thread was taken over, would it be proper if we moved some of the ABS discussion here?
I've heard that there were works to make PLA more temperature- and atmosphere resistant.
But I'm really curious what they're gonna come up with. I think it's not as much about creating the polymer, but optimizing it for 'feels', manufacturing and injection molding.

Not a bad idea. DT is very flexible

[davkol]

Sorry, I did write a response to this a few days ago but my browser crashed. I couldn't be bothered rewriting it until now[...]

[...] Of course, assimilating would be much easier if you are migrating between European countries, since the cultures have so much in common.

I read the wall of text, and I could not agree more. Whenever arguing with other people of my age, they seem to associate nationalism as "hitler". Millennials seem to think that border control is evil and we should accept everyone. Europe has such a beautiful culture and history, I would hate to see it go away in the next decade or two.

People keep repeating something about "beautiful culture and history". Oh well.

I wouldn't use the words "history", "Europe" and "beautiful" in the same sentence. And "culture"... That's the reminiscence of some long gone perfection and its remains—a sign of stagnation. But the modern civilization, enabled by experimental science, has been made possible by fighting old orders, such as Aristotelian (or even older, naïve) understanding of the world, that was inherently tied to contemporary cultures. Furthermore, I'd argue, that those cultures are hardly comprehensible without the associated contemporary mindset.

[Halvar]

I wouldn't use the words "history", "Europe" and "beautiful" in the same sentence. And "culture"... That's the reminiscence of some long gone perfection and its remains—a sign of stagnation. But the modern civilization, enabled by experimental science, has been made possible by fighting old orders, such as Aristotelian (or even older, naïve) understanding of the world, that was inherently tied to contemporary cultures.

Wow. I can't even remember the last time I read such a bullshit.

I almost spilled my tea.

[davkol]

That's history of science in a nutshell. The current first world has been made possible by people (e.g., Descartes), that built the foundations ground up and ignored/denied past teachings.

[fohat]

But the modern civilization, enabled by experimental science, has been made possible by fighting old orders, such as Aristotelian (or even older, naïve) understanding of the world, that was inherently tied to contemporary cultures.

Wow. I can't even remember the last time I read such a bullshit.

Yes, that is a pretty twisted perspective. But there is a germ of truth in there that Thomas Edison said eloquently in a very few words:

"Tradition is the greatest obstacle to progress."

The human race as a whole and individual societies must evolve and grow with time, otherwise that "stagnation" will inevitably set in. That is the most unfortunate aspect of the apparent rise of religious orthodoxy in general and ISIS in particular - the willful desire for primitive and aggressive ignorance.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ts/384980/

[davkol]

It's not just ISIS. Take a look at the lengthy history of Islamic world or, say, isolationist policies in China or Japan (and their philosophic systems).

[sinusoid]

Every new system is constructed against (a set of) older system(s). See Github vs. Subversion as a good model.

You need to have rules to deviate from. Combined with empirical evidence, they give you necessary data to propose changes. Look at software. How many times do you make the correct decision on the first go?

Also, eughh, Edison, the Steve Jobs of Steampunk.

[davkol]

Every new system is constructed against (a set of) older system(s).

Counterexample: the concept of paradigm shifts.

[sinusoid]

@davkol:
How is that a counterexample?
You need to have a "universally accepted paradigm" to be able to describe an "anomaly" against it. Without a prior system, there is no anomaly.
edit:
That wikipedia article gave me cancer. It reads like the PHP wiki edit history. The last time I've seen someone need a whole paragraph to poop out an ethereal shape of some sort of a definition was in some obligatory philosophical readings long time ago. Except there the definitions didn't make much sense.

[davkol]

The prior system becomes essentially irrelevant with the paradigm shift.

[Halvar]

The prior systems becomes what is called "history", and in most cases the new paradigm wouldn't have happened without the ones before. Forgetting the old ones or denying their existence has no advantages.

What are you doing on a vintage keyboard forum anyway?

[davkol]

The prior systems becomes what is called "history", and in most cases the new paradigm wouldn't have happened without the ones before. Forgetting the old ones or denying their existence has no advantages.

I'm not denying that. In fact, recording history is quite useful, because it provides data and context for future predictions.

What are you doing on a vintage keyboard forum anyway?

A devil's advocate.

I'm also still hoping, that this isn't a *vintage* keyboard forum, anyway.

[Muirium]

Mostly vintage. Not only, but it's our main line. The industry has itself to thank for that!

[seebart]

I'm also still hoping, that this isn't a *vintage* keyboard forum, anyway.

No need to "hope", you're at a mechanical keyboard club! Nothing vintage about DT except some "older" keyboards occasionally, but not exclusively.

[sinusoid]

@davkol,
Exactly. But the paradigm shift would not have taken place without the prior system, as there would be nothing to shift from in the first place. Therefore, if you take away that previous system, you also take away the basis for the paradigm shift, and we end up on the trees, back with the chimps...
Mistakes are progress too.
re: devil's advocate - How are the wages? Any good?

@Halvar,
re: vintage keyboard - What about the mice subsection? What about the workshop (where all the fun happens imvho)? That's some serious pidgeon-holing right there, man...

Like, vvp's Katy is totally non vintage, and I still love it...

[vivalarevolución]

I really don't have time for anyone's nationalist and defined culture BS here.

https://youtu.be/dDfEnKcHBSc

The actual reality of a nationalist identity and a defined cultural is that these things are ever changing and dynamic, even the most basic things that seem to define culture (i.e. language, ethnicity, race). So to attempt to exactly define them is reductionist in itself. It reduces the actual diversity that exists whatever is your define nationality and culture, and how much you have in common with people that seem so different than you.

[davkol]

Exactly. But the paradigm shift would not have taken place without the prior system, as there would be nothing to shift from in the first place. Therefore, if you take away that previous system, you also take away the basis for the paradigm shift, and we end up on the trees, back with the chimps...

For example, Newtonian mechanics don't need Aristotelian physics.

[fohat]

Progress comes in all sorts of ways. Slow, methodical step-by-step advancement is far more common and reliable than the rare flashes of inspiration, although those are spectacular.

As a child of the 1950s-1960s, I grew up in a world that seemed to have limitless possibilities and that everyone was happy and excited about it. Today, it feels like a large (and vocal and well-armed) percentage of the human race is determined to attempt to move society in a retrograde direction.

What made the "good old days" good was the hopeful feeling of moving forward into the future.

[Halvar]

For example, Newtonian mechanics don't need Aristotelian physics.

Newton rightfully said: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

[davkol]

For example, Newtonian mechanics don't need Aristotelian physics.

Newton rightfully said: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

It's also important to consider the context of that quote. Newton used it in correspondence with Hooke and explicitly mentioned Descartes.

Now, the original usage of that notion is another story, but there was hardly any progress in medieval Europe.

Progress comes in all sorts of ways. Slow, methodical step-by-step advancement is far more common and reliable than the rare flashes of inspiration, although those are spectacular.

It also happens within one paradigm. The quote [attributed to Henry Ford] about "faster horses" comes to mind (and ironically, Model T was a design without any innovation btw).

[sinusoid]

here was hardly any progress in medieval Europe.

Compared to what? America?

Hmm, yeees... Seems it's gonna go downhill from here.

However, I've got some unfortunate news. Yesterday evening, when reading this thread, I was tapping my head, and everything clacked into place! I had all the answers! Unfortunately, about that time, we had to buckle up for an early spring festivities party. The terrible wine they served there made bottom out completely. I heard I became totally tactless, and popped a rubber dome with a random lady. Things went linear from there - back home I discovered I lost my keys, so I pulled off my cap, and sat on the staircase floorboard until I switched out. By the time I woke up, I forgot everything!

All that's left is topr-ay I'm not doubleshot by the consequences.

[davkol]

Compared to modern history. Although, the Islamic world was the closest to anything like progress at the time, but the Enlightenment and industrial revolution didn't happen there (due to lack of interest and infrastructure).