The Oracle Answers

[combataran]

Are there any other Topre variations that are still in production besides the Leopolds, Realforces, Novatouch and the HHKB?

[002]

For the consumer market, no. For B2B sales, very likely yes.

[combataran]

For the consumer market, no. For B2B sales, very likely yes.

Any notable brands that I should keep an eye out for?

[Muirium]

Well, I'm sure you've already heard of my favourite one: µTRON!



Now I've got that out of the way, the OEM brands I've heard of (through 002 of course) are Nissho, Juki and Hatsuko. Not sure if any of them still do it, though. JustSystems certainly does a good looking Realforce. I'd love to get my hands on that one someday.

[002]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the µTRON and the Type Heaven
All *known* non-Realforce Topre keyboards are documented here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_OEM_Keyboards

[Muirium]

Great stuff! Sorting by availability, I immediately discover what I should have expected all along:



The "Final Cut" Realforce!

[combataran]

Great stuff! Sorting by availability, I immediately discover what I should have expected all along:
The "Final Cut" Realforce!

The first 2 Amazon links say that they're unavailable, and the G-tune board is a Type-Heaven reskin. This saddens me.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the µTRON and the Type Heaven
All *known* non-Realforce Topre keyboards are documented here: wiki/Topre_OEM_Keyboards

How would you rank the current consumer boards in terms of Topre-ness(and not necessarily Realforce-ness)?

[Hypersphere]

@combataran: Although your question was apparently directed to 002, because I am quite fond of Topre-switch keyboards, I thought I would also offer an opinion.

"Topre-ness" means different things to different people. It involves some combination of a number of parameters. These could include the sound and feel of the switches, but it might also include the fit, finish, and aesthetics of the keyboard.

The sound of a Topre switch includes the hallmark "thock" sound. This varies quite a lot depending on whether the switch is case-mounted, as in the HHKB Pro 2, or plate-mounted, as in the Realforce boards. It also depends upon whether or not the switch has been silenced, as in the Type-S HHKB, factory-silenced RF, or DIY silenced using Silencing Rings, ironed soft-landing pads, or dental bands. Out of the box, I think one of the best "thock" sounds is made by the Leopold FC660C.

As for feel, the tactility of Topre switches can be a bit elusive and difficult to describe. It is probably most pronounced in the models with 55g domes, but it is present in 45g models as well, and the feeling can vary depending on such things as case-mounting vs. plate-mounting. I tend to like the springy feel of the case-mounted Topres in the HHKB.

A nice thing about the original Topre switch (not including the ones with Cherry mounts found in the CM Novatouch) is that the keycaps are designed to work as a unit with the switch. The caps "just work" and you needn't fiddle with all the variables encountered in trying to match Cherry mx caps with your keyboard.

As for overall fit and finish, including the choice of stock caps, the RF87U takes the prize as far as I am concerned. However, the HHKB is beautiful as well, and I prefer the 60% form factor and layout of the HHKB. The Leopold FC660C is also a solid board, and the CM Novatouch becomes quite usable after lubing the stabilizers and fitting it with Silencing Rings and high-quality keycaps.

If I had to do an overall ranking based on my own concept of Topre-ness, it would go like this:

Silenced RF87UB45 > Standard RF87UB45 > Silenced RF87UB55 > Standard RF87UB55 > Silenced black HHKB > Standard black HHKB > Silenced, lubed, and properly keycapped Novatouch > Silenced Leopold FC660C > Standard FC660C

You could probably substitute the white models of RF and HHKB boards; I just happen to prefer the black ones. I haven't tried out other Topre-switch keyboards, so I have not included them in my rankings.

Although the HHKB is not at the top of my ranking for Topre-ness, I tend to use my HHKB boards more often than any other board. This is because of the added benefits of the 60% form factor and layout.

[gcardinal]

Mighty Oracle,

Im poor, but I dream of Topre switches.

What is the best keyboard to get of eBay as a project-keyboard? I can solder and have access to CNC / laser cutter.

[scottc]

You're just going to have to save up if you want Topre. There's no Topre alternative that you can get very cheaply on the likes of eBay. If you're lucky, you might eventually find a cheaper HHKB Pro 1, but that's really your only bet.

As for other cheapo boards... You can get cheap stuff like Cherry G80-1800s or 11900s etc from all over the place. Maybe start an ad in the Marketplace asking for the cheapest, crappiest keyboards that anyone has. A €5 G80-1800 was my first Cherry board and I enjoyed it a lot. There's a lot of room for modding thanks to the keycap mount and PCB-mounted switches.

[The Keyboard Oracle]

The Keyboard Oracle has decided: What he said.

[element72]

Is there a way I can purchase this keyboard or something very similar: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/in ... tail&p=634

I prefer direct access to the arrow keys and I want the keyboard to be this compact. It is so hard to find a keyboard design like this. Maybe it's possible to program one like this? Could the pok3r be programmed like this and are the keys close enough for making similar arrow keys?

[gcardinal]

You're just going to have to save up if you want Topre. There's no Topre alternative that you can ...

By pure luck I managed to score used CM NovaTouch TKL by checking local ads - got it for $ 92.

I will also go for G80 and mod it as well - from next paycheck. Thank you!

[IsoMacintosh]

Ducky premier with dye sub caps?

ducky_premier_blue_grey_pbt_cherry_mx_brown-33152699-xtra4.jpg (589.62 KiB) Viewed 10217 times

Are keycaps like this dye sublimated? I thought dye sublimation produced normal visible letters.

[guk]

Those are laser etched, the dyesubs with that color scheme look like this:

[scottc]

You're just going to have to save up if you want Topre. There's no Topre alternative that you can ...

By pure luck I managed to score used CM NovaTouch TKL by checking local ads - got it for $ 92.

I will also go for G80 and mod it as well - from next paycheck. Thank you!

Nice one! That's lucky. Congratulations!

[katushkin]

It may not be 100% keyboard related, but what are the innards of a Dolch PAC like? I thought it might be a pretty awesome project to turn one into a real portable gaming rig...

[Halvar]

There are different Dolch genererations. Mine, that I just got yesterday, has a Pentium 1 Processor (around 1996 I think) on a Baby AT board, which means both power supply and casing are not compatible with ATX (or ITX) boards. Also, there's a very small 40 mm fan on the processor, and the case isn't designed to dissipate a lot of heat like newer gamer PC cases.

So it's probably somehow possible for an experienced modder with a lot of ventilation, but it will be a lot of work on the case, and the result will probably still be pretty loud.

I'm still thinking about what to do with it.

[HzFaq]

It may not be 100% keyboard related, but what are the innards of a Dolch PAC like? I thought it might be a pretty awesome project to turn one into a real portable gaming rig...

I have a PAC62 and PAC 64 (I think) sat next to me, you can have them both if you want, I've been meaning to get rid of them for ages. No keyboards though, one was broken beyond repair and the other was sold. They are heavy though, so I'd advise a pick up somewhere as postage would probably be £30+.

[katushkin]

There are different Dolch genererations. Mine, that I just got yesterday, has a Pentium 1 Processor (around 1996 I think) on a Baby AT board, which means both power supply and casing are not compatible with ATX (or ITX) boards. Also, there's a very small 40 mm fan on the processor, and the case isn't designed to dissipate a lot of heat like newer gamer PC cases.

So it's probably somehow possible for an experienced modder with a lot of ventilation, but it will be a lot of work on the case, and the result will probably still be pretty loud.

I'm still thinking about what to do with it.

Ah ok. I think it would be an ITX I would go for, but I think there would have to be a lot of drilling and stuff. Thanks for the info though.

I have a PAC62 and PAC 64 (I think) sat next to me, you can have them both if you want, I've been meaning to get rid of them for ages. No keyboards though, one was broken beyond repair and the other was sold. They are heavy though, so I'd advise a pick up somewhere as postage would probably be £30+.

Do they work? And would any other Dolch board be able to go with them if I was to acquire one?

You're in Windsor? It might have to be in the new year, but I am tempted...

[HzFaq]

I think you'd need a keyboard from the same model (might also be able to help with that), but yeah, both were working at the start of the summer when I got them and have been sat in a corner of my office since so they should still work.

[katushkin]

I think you'd need a keyboard from the same model (might also be able to help with that), but yeah, both were working at the start of the summer when I got them and have been sat in a corner of my office since so they should still work.

Awesome! I'm definitely interested, and if you would be able to help me with the board again that would be fantastic! My gf works down in Potter's Bar during the week usually, and if I can get down there when I'm on my scheduled week off from work, I could swing by to you at some point

[rdennis42]

Oh great Oracle, I desire a gaming keyboard with cherry reds or browns, that is on the smaller side but has a few macro keys. Preferably under $80

[Rainman]

Hi there, I currently own a cherry mx clear keyboard but I got the oportunity to buy cherry mx tactile grey switches to solder on my kb. I find that mx clears are a bit light to my taste (I bottom out from time to time) so I thought to try heavier springs. The Question is, has anyone owned and typed for a longer time on mx tactile greys, are they tiring and how do they feel in general. I kbow that they are a heavier clear, but I want to know how they actually compare and feel? Thanks in advance

[katushkin]

Hi there, I currently own a cherry mx clear keyboard but I got the oportunity to buy cherry mx tactile grey switches to solder on my kb. I find that mx clears are a bit light to my taste (I bottom out from time to time) so I thought to try heavier springs. The Question is, has anyone owned and typed for a longer time on mx tactile greys, are they tiring and how do they feel in general. I kbow that they are a heavier clear, but I want to know how they actually compare and feel? Thanks in advance

Greys are heavy. REALLY heavy. I love tactile switches and I soldered some greys into my KC 108 because I was really curious about them, but I can't type for prolonged periods of time on them, because they are so heavy. If you have typed on Greens, you think that you like the heavier switches, but greys are like nothing else. I'm typing on MY at the moment, and they are quite similar to MY.

[SL89]

Heavier then Greens?

[Muirium]

Yup. Greens are merely blues with black springs. Medium weight, not as heavy as grey.

[SL89]

I need greys (tactile and click) in my life then. Green have been too soft lately.

[scoonz]

Hello Deskthority community and Venerable Keyboard Oracul ! This is my first post here...

I want to buy a mechanical keyboard with lowest possible latency and NKRO (6KRO will do).
My application is the following: I'm going to play music with it
So that's why ultra low latency is the must. I made some research on Internet (this site became my favorite place ), however I'm still confused with several questions:

1. Even gold plated switches requires debouncing. It is said it adds ~5ms to the latency. Are there any exceptions among keyboard with Cherry MX or other mechanical switches? I guess it they were then due enhanced debouncing algos.
May be capacitive switches (Topre) are better in this matter?

2. Are there any keyboards with actuation point less then 1.9mm? I guess it's also a direction to dig into.

3. Then speaking about latency it is always about USB polling rate. What about PS/2? Is there such a phenomena as fast or slow PS/2 keyboards when speaking about electronic part only? (not considering 2 previous latency factors)

4. I'm going to play chords (pressing several notes simultaneously). I hope them to be transmitted simultaneously also I mean as close to that as possible.

5. So, what keyboard should I buy?

[scottc]

Probably something like this...