The Oracle Answers

[Madhias]

I can't answer all your questions, but I read that the new Cherry MX 6.0 keyboards are very fast - if not the fastest out there!

[SL89]

Isn't Topre working on an Analog based keyboard for almost exactly these sorts of situations?

[Muirium]

Topre is already there. (Their analogue output stuff will allow their keyboards to play at analogue tasks like MIDI. The sensing itself has always been analogue.) Topre is arguably faster than mechanical contact switches because of capacitative sensing. No debounce required.

But all this is quite academic as keyboards are faster than humans anyway. Believe the bullshit!

[scoonz]

Probably something like this...

He-he
I like layout of computer keyboards, I get attached to them. Standard piano-like midi keyboards doesn't work for me.
The question is "what computer keyboard gives min. latency".

But all this is quite academic as keyboards are faster than humans anyway. Believe the bullshit!

But the feeling is different. E.g. playing playing hardware synth w/o latency VS connecting it to soundcard with ASIO and playing with 7ms latency. 7ms difference is noticeable in this comparison.

What about Topre. I'd like to be sure it does not have that debouncing latency.

Could anybody or Venerable Keyboard Oracul kindly answer other questions? E.g. about PS/2 latency caused by electronics?

[Halvar]

7ms difference is noticeable in this comparison.

Musicians use to amaze me with their acute hearing, but I have some trouble believing that 7ms delay matter. 7ms is the delay you get by going away 2.3 meters from your speakers.

The record for speed typing on keyboards is at about 800 characters per minute, which is about 13 characters per second or 75 ms per character, Gamers see one frame per 17 ms on their 60 Hz Displays. So that's roughly what keyboards are designed for. Anyway, what happens in the computer, by software, in a non-realtime operating system like Linux, MacOS or Windows, should take much longer anyway than what happens in modern keyboards.

[scoonz]

7ms is the delay you get by going away 2.3 meters from your speakers.

Yep, I know it. So speed of sound is not so fast as it appears to be

Imagine a MIDIfied acoustic instrument (so it is capable to produce both natural acoustic sound without delay and also to send MIDI information to PC or hardware synthesizer). That is one of the application when delay come into play. 7ms extra difference (in case of PC) between acoustic and electronic sound is really noticeable. If it were only 7ms difference - it would be fine (slight phaser effect), but it is added to delay brought by MIDIfication (scanning of contacts matrix etc)

My application is similar - I've already got ~7ms delay on PC, so I'd like to make keyboard latency as low as possible.

BTW, it seams that I've found another two fast keyboards:
Logitech G910
a4tech bloody lightstrike (B700 or similar model with infrared contacts)
One guy measured them against Cherry MX 6.0 and says they are a little bit faster:
http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic ... 479#p13473

What do you think about Logitech G410 Atlas Spectrum, it is built using the same Romer-G switches as G910, but is almost twice as cheap.

[chzel]

I am confused...can you share a bit more information about the application?
You are trying to synchronize the action on the PC with what?
You say you are going to play music with it, just that? Then why do you need low latency? Do you need to synchronize your actions with some physical event? Have you taken into account your own "latency" i.e. your reaction time? How many keys do you need?
Is DIY an option?

[scoonz]

You are trying to synchronize the action on the PC with what?
You say you are going to play music with it, just that? Then why do you need low latency? Do you need to synchronize your actions with some physical event? Have you taken into account your own "latency" i.e. your reaction time? How many keys do you need?
Is DIY an option?

DIY is an option, yep. However I'm not so strong in electronics so I need a precise (exhaustive) and not so difficult instruction. But I suspect it would be time consuming, so spending ~$120-180 would be wiser, assuming I'll have to pay for DIY also - buying parts (in addition to spending time and wasting smb else's time).
So if I proceed with DIY - the resulting device would be a MIDI controller that looks like PC keyboard I guess.

The number of keys I need is "the more the better" But practically speaking I can deal with keyboard if it only has 3 rows with letters (30-33 keys), this is the minimum.

What about my own latency. Playing music I different from gaming, so you can't speak about REACTION. During game first you see smth happening then react. But if you play music you get tuned to particular rhythm (tempo), so your actions are predicted in time, you don't have to react to any uncertainty. So there's no such thing as 'my human delay'. There is a delay between keypress and hearing a sound. And the greater it is, the more distraction it gives and drives me a little bit out of the rhythm of whole arrangement.

So let's simplify a little bit. Syncing with acoustic stuff applies lots of work and is postponed for future, now I have much simpler tasks.
The application is the following. I hear an arrangement (e.g. drums) while recording new track that I play with my keyboard (let's say bass). Then I start an arrangement again, now it contains drums and newly recorded bass. While hearing it, I record some solo. And so on, you've got the idea.

Keyboard I currently use for that purpose (not gaming keyboard, but with Cherry Blue switches) gives a delay that is distracting me. By distracting I mean that I play better if I don't hear myself then if I do. The result of such a 'deaf' recording is more rhythmically correct. That's why I need low latency.

[Dernubenfrieken]

51sgfrJYW+L.jpg (32.98 KiB) Viewed 13722 times

Anybody know what keyboard this is? The only other info I have is that it's an Ortek, but don't know what model or what switches.

[seebart]

0

[combataran]

I'm planning to pick up a used Topre board to use long term, so it has to have great build quality. Which one should I go for?

I'm between a HHKB, a Novatouch and a TKL Realforce. *Is it viable to consider a HHKB if I don't program at all(cost is a factor I'm accounting for)?

I'd love it if the board could last till it looks like this(the left HHKB):



It could also be black. I don't have a color preference for keyboards.

[seebart]

Although I might get killed by the DT HHKB fanbase for this I'd say the Leopold FC 660C is higher build quality than the HHKB, possibly even slighty more so than an Realforce. I have owned all three. I guess it depends what layout size-factor you prefer.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Leopold_FC_660C

[scottc]

You're probably right, seebart -- the Leopold has a metal plate and sounds a lot more solid than the humble HHKB. What the HHKB has over the Leopold is an excellent layout, only made better by Hasu's custom controller.

[combataran]

Although I might get killed by the DT HHKB fanbase for this I'd say the Leopold FC 660C is higher build quality than the HHKB, possibly even slighty more so than an Realforce. I have owned all three. I guess it depends what layout size-factor you prefer.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Leopold_FC_660C

I'm leaning more towards the Realforces(has more keys, more *bang* for my buck). The HHKB, for it's unique layout, and the Novatouch, it's cherry compatible stems and lower price point.

Not too hot for the 660C for some reason I can't explain.

[seebart]

Although I might get killed by the DT HHKB fanbase for this I'd say the Leopold FC 660C is higher build quality than the HHKB, possibly even slighty more so than an Realforce. I have owned all three. I guess it depends what layout size-factor you prefer.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Leopold_FC_660C

I'm leaning more towards the Realforces(has more keys, more *bang* for my buck). The HHKB, for it's unique layout, and the Novatouch, it's cherry compatible stems and lower price point.

Not too hot for the 660C for some reason I can't explain.

Well that's cool, I'm a RF user myself, the question is then uniform vs. varible keyweight. I see your in Malaysia so my guess is you might be able to get any one easier then people like myself in the EU. Have a look at our RF wiki list if you like, it's got all the information with a nice list of different models:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce

[Dernubenfrieken]

The keycaps look Apple AEK, I've never seen an AEK with a trackball though.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Extended_Keyboard_II

The keycaps are clearly Ortek, they have the weird 0 for the mac symbol, and the layout isn't right for AEK Keycaps. I just don't know what switches would be in this thing.

[Muirium]

Yup, nothing Apple about it. Some AEK clones were seriously faithful to the original. Gotta hand it to Ortek for going the extra mile with a trackball!

Anybody know what keyboard this is? The only other info I have is that it's an Ortek, but don't know what model or what switches.

Mind, Big Ass Enter wasn't Apple's style at all.

[courtesi]

More Topre questions...

Would a stock 104u/b or 104 Hi Pro be too noisy for the office? I assume just going off Youtube videos that that Hi Pro might be a little more noisy.

Also, if I'm someone who is easily annoyed by keycap wobble caused by Alps switches will the HiPro equally annoy me?

[Tombery]

Hello!

Got a question about following Deskthority related key:


Is this design free for use for community? If not who owns the rights?

Thanks in advance.

[scottc]

Where did you find it?

[Muirium]

More Topre questions...

Would a stock 104u/b or 104 Hi Pro be too noisy for the office? I assume just going off Youtube videos that that Hi Pro might be a little more noisy.

Also, if I'm someone who is easily annoyed by keycap wobble caused by Alps switches will the HiPro equally annoy me?

I haven't got a HiPro, and I've had very little time on one in person. But I'd advise you against it because those two things appear to be its weak spots.

A regular Realforce will be an excellent office board. The main reservation I hear from people who use them in such settings isn't the noise, but the risk that someone else at work will look up the keyboard and find how much it is worth!

Depending on how deathly silent your office is, you might want to consider a damped Type-S Realforce, or installing damping rings for yourself. They can make an already smooth keyboard whisper quiet indeed. I'm proxying some for Europe at the moment. (Which may be irrelevant to you, as you don't say where in the world you are!)

[Muirium]

Is this design free for use for community? If not who owns the rights?

Deskthority Club owns the rights. We have had these keys produced for us in the past.




If you want to make some, come talk to us about it.

[courtesi]

you might want to consider a damped Type-S Realforce, or installing damping rings for yourself.

Thanks for the suggestion. I do have one question however(!)

When I watch videos or reviews of silencing rings the one thing brought up is "barely changes throw distance."

However, what if it is your goal to shorten it up a bit? Use twice the rings?

Would it be better to use a Coolermaster Novatouch and install some extremely fat O-Rings?

[Muirium]

I suppose so. Haven't tried that, myself. Something thicker would work better for that. These rings are as thin as possible, on purpose!

The rings sit on top of the sliders (just underneath the switch top shell). So you'd be reducing the travel from the top of the throw, which means reducing pre-travel. Something to look out for would be whether the keys wind up activating super high at the top of the stroke. You can't dial in your own activation point in Topre. (Well, not yet…)

Edit triggered edit:

Would it be better to use a Coolermaster Novatouch and install some extremely fat O-Rings?

I actually did this when reviewing the NovaTouch. I installed CM's o-rings right inside the switches! Can't recommend it. I hardly remember what it was like now, but it didn't fix the NovaTouch rattle and made the whole board wrong in some immediately apparent way. Still technically worked, but didn't feel at all Topre.

[Tombery]

I want to ask for a permission to utilize Deskthority key in a Forum kit (for Carbon and Yuri keyset). I am not that active on Deskthority like on Geekhack, but it would be a pleasure for me to feature Deskthority in those sets.

[Muirium]

Sounds good. Link to us whenever you post it, and remember to post about it over here!

SP already has the legend available for doubleshot SA, as you can see above.

[Tombery]

Thanks!

I am currently working on child deals for Yuri. If i am done with child deals i'll make a thread here for Yuri. I hope for constructive feedback. Also i am open for suggestions.

The first run for Carbon is over. But as soon as i start preparation for round 2, i'll open also a thread here for it.

Best regards,
Tombery

[kbdfr]

[…] Is [the DT key ]design free for use for community? If not who owns the rights? […]

Deskthority Club owns the rights. […]

I want to ask for a permission to utilize Deskthority key in a Forum kit […]

Sounds good. Link to us whenever you post it, and remember to post about it over here! […]

I seem to have missed the spot where permission was granted by the rights owner.

[Muirium]

[…] Is [the DT key ]design free for use for community? If not who owns the rights? […]

Deskthority Club owns the rights. […]

I want to ask for a permission to utilize Deskthority key in a Forum kit […]

Sounds good. Link to us whenever you post it, and remember to post about it over here! […]

I seem to have missed the spot where permission was granted by the rights owner.

To be honest, I suspect we haven't bothered registering trademarks, including the logo. They're expensive to maintain. And seeing as we don't sell DT branded merch of our own, it's hard to see a negative to joining the other forums in this GB. Tombery did the right thing in asking us.

Did 7bit bother to seek our permission when he made these keys in Round 5? Who gave it to him? Do the rights exist at all? I honestly don't know.

If you disagree with my nod to Tombery, propose something! We can vote on it.

[kbdfr]

[…] Is [the DT key ]design free for use for community? If not who owns the rights? […]

Deskthority Club owns the rights. […]

I want to ask for a permission to utilize Deskthority key in a Forum kit […]

Sounds good. Link to us whenever you post it, and remember to post about it over here! […]

I seem to have missed the spot where permission was granted by the rights owner.

To be honest, I suspect we haven't bothered registering trademarks, including the logo. They're expensive to maintain. And seeing as we don't sell DT branded merch of our own, it's hard to see a negative to joining the other forums in this GB. Tombery did the right thing in asking us.

Did 7bit bother to seek our permission when he made these keys in Round 5? Who gave it to him? Do the rights exist at all? I honestly don't know.

If you disagree with my nod to Tombery, propose something! We can vote on it.

Intellectual property is not a matter of "registering trademarks", but that's not my point.
Tombery did (thanks for that) ask the right question, you gave the right answer, he asked for permission,
and obviously you felt entitled to grant it in behalf of the Club - but without putting the question to the Club.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I contend it's not me who should now ask for a vote on that.
It's you who should have done it in the first place.

You cannot say "Deskthority Club owns the rights" and then "Do the rights exist at all? I honestly don't know.".
Oh, well, obviously you can