Fully programmable 60% keyboards?

[pietergen]

Hi, I'm looking for a 60% that is programmable. I only know of the HHKB (with a retrofitted Teensy). The Pok3r is programmable but not fully, I do not know how easy it is to put a Teensy in it. KBP V60 - same story.

Background: I want to use my own custom layout and keybindings.

Do I have to build my own or are there 60% KB on the market that can be programmed/retrofitted with a Teensy ? Please let me know... Thanks !

[chzel]

GH60 and NerD60 are both very nice.
GH60 from falbatech is great value for money. I'm typing on mine now.

[pietergen]

Is the Falbatech GH60 fully programmable? Can you assign anything to any key ?

[chzel]

Yeap. Pretty much anything. Macros too.

[ideus]

Nerd60 converted to TMK, the question with is not if it is programmable, but what you cannot program with it.

[matt3o]

you could reprogram any keyboard with hasu's USB to USB converter

if you can wait a bit there's also the TEX fantastic60

[Wodan]

There's also the KC60 and the SATAN60 PCB from aliexpress. Both are chinese GH60 imitations with some quirks.

[czarek]

you could reprogram any keyboard with hasu's USB to USB converter

No, you can't reprogram native FN and PN keys with it.

[matt3o]

you could reprogram any keyboard with hasu's USB to USB converter

No, you can't reprogram native FN and PN keys with it.

the answer would be: "YES. but you can't reprogram native FN and PN keys"

that's because those are internal to the keyboard, the signal needs to go through the USB cable to be re-programmable.

[Wodan]

I have what Vortex did to the PN key of the Pok3r!
Such a shame ...

[czarek]

you could reprogram any keyboard with hasu's USB to USB converter

No, you can't reprogram native FN and PN keys with it.

the answer would be: "YES. but you can't reprogram native FN and PN keys"

No, it's not fully programmable if you can't reprogram 2 keys.
Not to mention very crucial keys on very important bottom row.

Anyways if you have Pok3r and want it programmable, just replace PCB with GH60 which is fully compatible. That takes 30€ and 2 hours of work.

[pietergen]

Cool. GH60 looks promising.....

[Hypersphere]

I second Matt3o's suggestion for the Hasu USB-USB converter -- it works very well.

In addition, if you can wait a while, KBP intends to introduce a fully programmable V60. I am not sure of the timing, but I think it might be within the next few months.

[czarek]

I second Matt3o's suggestion for the Hasu USB-USB converter -- it works very well.

It works very well when you don't need FN and PN reprogrammed, which I believe is the most important thing people would actually want to reprogram.

USB->USB converter is very good indeed, for keyboards that output scan codes for each key, like Filco, or Realforce. With those you can do magic.

[Wodan]

Maybe the thread starter can elaborate a little more on what he is actually planning.
The programming feature of the Pok3r is actually pretty powerful - even if it's a little cumbersome. But a great out-of-the-box solution with no flashing required.

There is also a very poker-like keyboard available that comes with full TMK support - the KC60! Since the guy asking is from the Netherlands, he's probably even looking for an ANSI board - KC60 would work perfectly fine.

So my recommendation is:

1) Take a very close look at the programming features of the Pok3r and make sure it's not what you're looking for. If you believe you have a reason why it's not going to work, you might want to bounce that reason with us - maybe you're overlooking something.
2) See if you can get a KC60 somewhere which is a nice keyboard that unfortunately came with crappy keycaps Still it's essentially a pok3r with full firmware programmability
3) If you want to go for the GH60 PCB, I'd rather build one from scratch than replace the PCB of an existing keyboard unless you have proper desoldering equipment.

[amospalla]

I'm using an HHKB with Hasu's usb-usb converter and I can't think of anything better.

Pros: you can program several layers on it (I've got layers setup specifically for standard ISO, Matias ISO, Standard JIS and HHKB JIS) and move between them on the fly with a keystroke, so you can use any keyboard with your layout anywhere anytime. I do it this way so I can enjoy any keyboard I own.

If you go for the HHKB route I recommend also the JIS model, it provides 4 extra modifiers perfectly located for those demanding the highest posible combinations and posibilities.

[Wodan]

Biggest issue I am having with the HHKB JP is the odd/japanese offset of the bottom alphanumerics row (meaning the zxcv-row) which is positioned differently from ANSI/ISO keyboards.

[Hypersphere]

Of course, I am biased, but for me at least, if you already have a standard HHKB, the layout is perfect -- no need for any programming!

My use of keyboard programming is to produce something close to the HHKB layout on all my non-HHKB boards.

Regarding the KC60, I sent the first one back because of a broken mini-USB connector. The replacement also has various QC issues, including a very loose-fitting mini-USB connector.

I had better luck with a "SANTA" 60% programmable kit that I bought fully assembled with Gateron Yellows:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical ... n2nzdo2fBQ

This board initially had very rattly stabilizers, but after some lubing and changing the keycaps, they are now acceptably quiet. This is the first Cherry mx or clone that I have liked and the price was reasonable.

With respect to the Poker II and Pok3r, although they have extensive programmability, I've never liked them. One issue for me is that the way I want to program the boards, I end up with two dead keys (Pn and Fn). Unless I have a standard HHKB, I prefer a keyboard with no hard-wired Pn or Fn keys. If they all send scan codes, then every key can be remapped.

[czarek]

Of course, I am biased, but for me at least, if you already have a standard HHKB, the layout is perfect -- no need for any programming!

My use of keyboard programming is to produce something close to the HHKB layout on all my non-HHKB boards.

Regarding the KC60, I sent the first one back because of a broken mini-USB connector. The replacement also has various QC issues, including a very loose-fitting mini-USB connector.

I had better luck with a "SANTA" 60% programmable kit that I bought fully assembled with Gateron Yellows:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHKB-Mechanical ... n2nzdo2fBQ

This board initially had very rattly stabilizers, but after some lubing and changing the keycaps, they are now acceptably quiet. This is the first Cherry mx or clone that I have liked and the price was reasonable.

With respect to the Poker II and Pok3r, although they have extensive programmability, I've never liked them. One issue for me is that the way I want to program the boards, I end up with two dead keys (Pn and Fn). Unless I have a standard HHKB, I prefer a keyboard with no hard-wired Pn or Fn keys. If they all send scan codes, then every key can be remapped.

Yep, I go the same route when programming keyboards. My GH60 actually sport replica of HHKB layout + extra right control key and extra left FN key (where HHKB has free spaces).
I really like that HHKB has Alt/Opt and Cmd/Meta keys on both sides of the space bar in perfect places, just like on Amiga or Mac, with meta key next to space bar, and alt next to them.. Having used Macs for over a decade (and Amigas prior to that), I really need those keys, even when using Windows or Linux.
Unfortunately whatever you do to standard Pok3r, you can't have that functionality, unless you replace the PCB with a truly programmable one.
As for HHKB itself I am thinking about putting a teensy into it to make it fully programmable but only so the media keys actually work on my other systems too, not only MBP.

[pietergen]

As per request my goals and thoughts with this keyboard. Grab a cup of coffee or glass of beer, I need some time

* I use both Qwerty and my custom layout (an AdNW-version, think 'Dvorak-like').

* I use computers at home (Linux) and at work (Windows). Being a univ. teacher, I have a "personal" PC at my work desk, but I also use other PC's in classrooms etc or when I am working somewhere else.

* I dislike carrying a laptop - have done so for several years, in previous jobs. I don't like it.

* To use my personal layout, I made an autohotkey script that I carry on a USB-stick, but Windows and/or program makers are quite sloppy with layouts it seems, using hard-coded scan-codes etc. So most of the time it works but sometime not. Moreover, when you run a AHK script, you cannot run a second one at the same time, and I like to automate more things.

* I am not sure if, say, the standard Pok3r 's programmability is enough. I want my layout to be first citizen AND to use all sorts of other macro's, dead keys and so on.

* I mentionned a 60% keyboard, for that is portable. I am not sure if I can live without navigation keys (the arrows, PgUp, PgDn, Home, End) and the Function keys. I know some people do and some don't. But I do know that IF I am to live with it, I'll need maximum programmability.

* My dream would be a fully programmable, small (60-75%) board with more thumb keys than a standard board. The only "ready made" solution that I know of is the HHKB JP + Teensy. But, the odd stagger does not appeal me. A GH60 with a split space bar would be a very attractive keyboard to me

If one is to change stagger, a symmetrical stagger is the way to go. Think MuTron. Or, a split hand design and ergodox style staggers, but I want a conventional shape KB now. I feel that Shift should be a thumb key. Backspace could be as well, althought a Backspace - CapsLock swap is already a large improvement. Enter is in a silly place as well

* Also, thanks for all the suggestions so far. And please aks questions and/or give thoughts & advice ! Thanks again

[pietergen]

Here is an almost standard layout that I would love. Only the bottom row has changed.

[Hypersphere]

@pietergen: I think you might not have used the image insertion tool correctly. However, I was able to right-click on the image icon and open it in another window.

Remapping a standard layout is one thing. Redesigning the physical layout takes things to a new level. I do like the idea of a small spacebar. I tend to keep my thumbs near the center of the spacebar, no matter how large or small it is. In fact, if I were doing a physical design of a keyboard from scratch, I would strive for having all the keys small enough that no stabilizers would be required. In doing so, however, because I am so accustomed to the standard ANSI layout (but in a HHKB configuration), I would want to keep the relative positions of the keys fairly standard -- just change the size of the currently stabilized keys.

The HHKB is getting there, as it has only 3 stabilized keys -- Return (Enter), Left Shift, and Spacebar. I could easily do with a Return and Left Shift as small as 1.25x. However, I have never tried a Spacebar as small as 1.75x, which seems to be the largest size of key that is usually left unstabilized. I might need two Spacebar keys, each 1.50x to 1.75x.

[Wodan]

Here is an almost standard layout that I would love. Only the bottom row has changed.

Well you need a special keyboard for that layout, no doubt.

But most of these remappings should be possible with the Pok3r. You can even change it to Colemak and DVORAK using DIP switches.
http://www.vortexgear.tw/db/upload/webd ... 966663.pdf

You can change the function of ANY key to anything the keyboard can type. There's one restriction where FN and PN can not be mapped to Right CTRL and the keyboard is unable to create numpad codes to map numpad buttons in macros.

One thing that confuses many people is that you can not programm the base layer of the Po3r but have to switch into one of the THREE programmable layers. Each of these programmable layers has it's own FN-layer integrated!

You also programm the keyboard itself and it will work exactly the same on any device you connect it to. No software required and stuff. Pretty neat package.

[pietergen]

Thanks Wodan, also for making my uploaded picture visible.

Perhaps I should just start with the Pok3r. See if it suits me. If I need more programmability, I switch to a Falbatech GH60 (PCB or complete keyboard).

[Hypersphere]

The Pok3r programmability is quite remarkable. Unfortunately, the deal-breaker for me was the apparent inability to remap Right Ctrl as Fn. On a standard layout, Right Ctrl is my favorite location for a Fn key.

Another way to go is remapping software. When the Mac was my primary platform, I used Karabiner. Now I use Windows as primary and share a keyboard and mouse with Linux machines. For keyboard remapping software, I use ATNsoft Key Manager -- this is a commercial program, but it is extremely versatile and easy to use. I have profiles for several different keyboards, which can be switched on the fly.

It will be interesting to see what KBP comes up with in their forthcoming programmable V60.

[cookie]

That is a damn fine question, I really have trouble with programing my FaceU Replica... I am either too dumb for this or there are some issues with the board :/

GH60 is something I am interested to try.

[pietergen]

It will be interesting to see what KBP comes up with in their forthcoming programmable V60.

Hmm.... programmable with Matias Quiet Clicks ?

[czarek]

Problem with programmable V60 is that there is no ETA. I'm waiting for it since it was first announced but that was several months ago. I think if you want fully programmable Alps compatible keyboard it's better to hunt for Infinity keyboard.
I don't want to promise anything but we might also update GH60 to support Alps as well as Cherry for the next batch.

[pietergen]

Czarek: yes, many promising keyboards take a very long time to materialize..... If at all. Like the Axios, or the Unicomp Space Saver Keyboard...... Fortunately, I have some nice options already: the GH60 and the Pok3r (might be good enough).

Edit: also, adding Alpsmount to the GH60 would be great. Another great addition would be to make it possible to have a split space bar. I mean, that the client can choose: normal space bar (one switch + stabilizer) or split space bar (two switches).

[Hypersphere]

According to Daniel at KBP, they will introduce the V60 programmable first with Cherry mx. They might also have a Gateron option, but this is less certain. Then, depending upon sales, they might follow up with a Matias version.

Is there going to be a GB for the next generation of the GH60, or will this be available through Falbatech? It would be nice to have an Alps/Matias variant of this keyboard.