K-Type Skepticism

[slyker]

$150 for an assembled model without RGB or keycaps? Sure...

$200 as is, NO.

I'll patiently wait for Filco or Leopold to adopt the hot swap technology.

I could care less about the "Hookers and Blow" light show of these RGB boards. Sure I can turn it off but I'm not going to pay for it either.

[ohaimark]

I imagine that the K-Type's case machining and aluminum stock are higher quality than most cheap offerings from abroad. It's valid to ask... "Is it that much better, though?"

[TuxKey]

Hi everyone,

i’m trying to understand the “Halo” switches.
my Favourite switches are Topre and mx-clear but i find mx-clear to be a tad to heavy.
But i like the tactile scratchy tactile feel the give.

i tried comparing mx-clear vs Halo Clear vs “Halo True”
(last one reminds me of StarTrek, Romulan language “Jolan tru” hahahaah...
Yah i’m a bit of a trekkie...

so even comparing the mx-clear with the Halo clear designed to be like the mx-clear i see differences in my case i think for the best at least if you like the tactile feel of mx-clear but find them to heavy and i think i'm seeing something that can be understood as lighter..But the “Halo True” is supposed to come close to Topre switches.?? i have the FC660C and do like it because it’s lighter than my FC660M mx-clear.

in order to understand and be able to place these switches in regards to feel my question is can someone explain how these three numbers relate to feel and translate to mx-clear for example..
The graphs are awesome and the measurements HaaTa takes is impressive to say the least.
But i can't interpret the numbers For example these 4 numbers ..

1) Tactile Peak Force
2) Actuation Force
3) Bottom-Out Force
4) Spring force

mx-clear link; https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... -mx-clear/

Halo Clear link; https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... alo-clear/

Halo true link; https://input.club/the-comparative-guid ... halo-true/


btw i read all the links in this post..including the Keychatter review.
And the post talking about the graphs and measurements and so forth..
i'm a bit wiser but not 100% clear. yet..

[HaaTa]

I'm running around today (with it being the launch and all), so this will be a bit shorter than I'd usually do for something like this.

Really, it came down to reducing the number of SKUs. Having more variations tends to be a lot more expensive than people realize. If Massdrop wasn't involved, Input Club would probably be able to only handle 3 different switch types max (that's why we've never mentioned more than brown, blue, clear).

As for a BOM cost, it's a bit trickier (because MD says we can't disclose it). But I can say it's significantly cheaper to make an injection molded case and sell it for $150.
The biggest cost is definitely the case. Things like keycaps get quite a bit more inexpensive because we're ordering so many, and consumer packaging isn't necessary.
Also, BOM cost is a question of scale, building a single K-Type (in the prototyping phase) was in the thousands of USD. Not even joking. The top plate, while it's hard to see in the reviews because you need to take out the switches, has special ribbing across to increase rigidity of the whole keyboard but still keep the keyboard rather light (passes the flex test with flying colors ). It's not your standard aluminium case.

As for switches, I'm hoping to be able to send out some early review samples (will depend on how many I can get). Kaihua tests all their switches up to 70 million presses before production begins (basically, it takes months). Fortunately, testing is well on it's way and should be complete by the time we need the switches.

On consistency, I'll need to do a full report on this (will probably take me at least a month to put something I'm happy with together), but there are two aspects. 1) Force consistency 2) Actuation consistency.
Most of us here tend to care about (1), but arguably it's (2) that's more important. And (2) is what I'm mostly referring to.

From support requests on the various Infinity keyboards thus far the worst switches for bouncing (in no particular order): MX Clear, various Gateron, Zealios and Matias. The Matias and Gateron are affected a lot more by poor soldering of switches (melting the plastic housing too much). MX Clears were an odd one, but was a pretty consistent case for increasing the debounce time over 5 ms. For those that are unaware, the standard spec for switch debounce is 5 ms, if a switch doesn't hit that, it's out of spec, and thus inconsistent.
Now, that's not to say the switch is bad and unusable. Just requires the firmware to be more forgiving.

The Halo switches weren't originally going to be part of the K-Type. Cherry doesn't have an MX Clear RGB switch (and they weren't easy to work with back in 2016). This is what prompted me to finish the force gauge and actually find which MX-variant was best for the K-Type. It's not a secret, but I don't really like Cherry-style switches (will save the reasoning for a future, long article). So when I had the chance to design a cherry-style switch, I sought to correct as many issues as I could, while still being compatible. In the end, I'm quite pleased with the result.

The main idea is "Why does Topre and Buckling Spring tactility feel better than Cherry MX and Alps (typical) tactility?" I want to put together a whole mess of diagrams and animations, but I'll let DT ponder on it for a while

[dream3]

On consistency, I'll need to do a full report on this (will probably take me at least a month to put something I'm happy with together), but there are two aspects. 1) Force consistency 2) Actuation consistency.
Most of us here tend to care about (1), but arguably it's (2) that's more important. And (2) is what I'm mostly referring to.

From support requests on the various Infinity keyboards thus far the worst switches for bouncing (in no particular order): MX Clear, various Gateron, Zealios and Matias. The Matias and Gateron are affected a lot more by poor soldering of switches (melting the plastic housing too much). MX Clears were an odd one, but was a pretty consistent case for increasing the debounce time over 5 ms. For those that are unaware, the standard spec for switch debounce is 5 ms, if a switch doesn't hit that, it's out of spec, and thus inconsistent.
Now, that's not to say the switch is bad and unusable. Just requires the firmware to be more forgiving.

The Halo switches weren't originally going to be part of the K-Type. Cherry doesn't have an MX Clear RGB switch (and they weren't easy to work with back in 2016). This is what prompted me to finish the force gauge and actually find which MX-variant was best for the K-Type. It's not a secret, but I don't really like Cherry-style switches (will save the reasoning for a future, long article). So when I had the chance to design a cherry-style switch, I sought to correct as many issues as I could, while still being compatible. In the end, I'm quite pleased with the result.

The main idea is "Why does Topre and Buckling Spring tactility feel better than Cherry MX and Alps (typical) tactility?" I want to put together a whole mess of diagrams and animations, but I'll let DT ponder on it for a while

HaaTa, would you be able to provide more down to earth feedback on the new switches. Those graphs make it hard to translate to real life for the average person. I'm not a keyboard enthusiast but I've been after a RGB TKL with good quality for a while. Now it's finally here but I have no idea how to make an informed decision regarding True vs Clear.

I really like tactiles and think the brown could have a bit more of that. Also, would not like to keep bottoming up browns (to reduce noise). Lastly I'd like a switch that would go easy on my fingers, like the browns.

Which one would hit more boxes for my case, True or Clear?

[chuckdee]

I just sent HaaTa a PM. It would take forever to get my questions answered in the masses of comments flowing into the AMA and Massdrop topic system. It makes more sense to use a forum for this sort of discussion.

I should clarify that I would want a barebones keyboard in a pre-assembled state, not a kit. That wouldn't increase costs -- they'd simply need to yank the keyboard off of the line a few steps earlier in the assembly process.

Apparently for procurement and logistics, it's not just take it off the line a few steps earlier. At least, that's what they say in a few places. It's up to you whether you believe it. As far as the reddit, well, I guess that's to each's own, though he has replied here, so I guess that's a moot point.

[HaaTa]

My rule of thumb.

If you like MX Clears more than MX Browns, you'll like the Halo Clears. It has more of a feeling like an MX style switch with awesome tactility.

Otherwise Halo True is for you. The Halo True has a gentle and smooth lead-in (due to lower preload) and higher final resistance to help you not bottom out.

[dream3]

My rule of thumb.

If you like MX Clears more than MX Browns, you'll like the Halo Clears. It has more of a feeling like an MX style switch with awesome tactility.

Otherwise Halo True is for you. The Halo True has a gentle and smooth lead-in (due to lower preload) and higher final resistance to help you not bottom out.

I've never experienced anything other than Blues and Browns.

So was looking for more tactile feedback and the logic choice was Clears. Also moving up from Browns to Clears would already help me not bottom out, right?

Well any other tips to help me visualize them and make the correct pick?

[Techno Trousers]

Haata, would you say the Halo clears are about the equivalent of an ergo clear?

[Findecanor]

When will the switches be available to buy separately?

[ohaimark]

Apparently for procurement and logistics, it's not just take it off the line a few steps earlier. At least, that's what they say in a few places. It's up to you whether you believe it. As far as the reddit, well, I guess that's to each's own, though he has replied here, so I guess that's a moot point.

If they can handle different switch SKUs (and the same caps), they absolutely could have handled an SKU without caps or switches. It sounds like they simply didn't want to.

[chuckdee]

Not knowing anything about their logistics chain, I couldn't say whether it's that they didn't want to, or their particular chain doesn't allow it, or it would indeed cost more. But I have no reason nor knowledge not to give them the benefit of that doubt.

[livingspeedbump]

I've been using a K-Type for a few weeks now, and maybe more importantly I've had the V1 prototype Halo switches (closest to Halo Clears I believe) in a board I built for a few months now.

When reviewing the K-Type it was very important to judge what I was presented with. It IS a good keyboard, I say that without any hesitation. The build quality is great, far beyond the Whitefox. The switches are nice (more on that later), the lighting looks really vibrant, the Tai-Hao caps are..mediocre, but the font is pleasant enough, PBT, doubleshot, means they are better than most stock caps.

Case quality is surprisingly good. It is worlds better than the WhiteFox case. No more visible screws, no visible gap between the plate and the case (obviously, the top case is the plate). The acrylic layer was perfectly flush and diffuses the underglow as good as I've seen. I'm not a low profile case fan by any means, but I can without question say this is my favorite low profile case. The RGB is good. Top and bottom lighting can be manipulated separately. Very smooth, easily some of the smoothest I've ever seen. The light pipes work surprisingly well.

Assuming programing the keyboard will be as easy as past IC boards, it will be a breeze. Curious how they will manage the RGB lighting, I've had no taste of that yet. Full programmability is nice, and the IC have a GUI that makes this far easier than most other customs. But at the end of the day I don't use it much. I generally know what layout I want and stick with it. Old Duck boards, as an example, were ****ing horrendous to program. But once I got it done I never needed to go back and change my layout. So while everything about programing an Input Club board is basically perfect, I have to ask how often do you really think you will use this feature?

The Halo Switches: these guys do indeed feel fantastic. The keypress is very smooth, the bump is nice and round, not abrasive at all. It isn't as passive as the Zealio bump is or as sharp as an MX clear. Typing at speed, they feel like a good tactile switch, though it isn't a total gamechanger either. I mean, this is just another MX switch after all and MX has its limitations. As far as tactile MX switches go though, these are my favorite. They do NOT feel like Topre though. I can see how the curve is inspired by Topre, but that doesn't mean they feel like Topre. Clearly, not MX switch can, just due to how the switches differ so much in construction. I really hope people don't start comparing these to Topre like with Zealios after they reach the masses because that would just be an unfair comparison to both, but it will probably happen. The new Kailh switches I've used have all far exceeded my expectations, even still I 100% understand the desire for more options.

Ok, all that being said, expectations vs. reality do leave some to be desired from an enthusiasts perspective. For starters, I think the target audience was just not honed in enough. Marketing to enthusiast, gamers, and casual users alike is difficult impossible. I think the K-Type clearly reflects that vision though. Nothing about it really jumps out at you. I don't see any real risks being taken. At the end of the day I think the overall design really is more for the gamers/casual users than the enthusiasts.

Many features we are just used to in $200+ boards aren't there. Physical layout options being front and foremost. I'm sorry, I just don't personally like the "standard" layout. I like my stepped caps and my winkeyless bottom row. I like my split right shift. The WhiteFox did excel at providing layout options (though having so many may have lead to its mediocrity in a few ways.) I think as enthusiasts one of the things that truly makes us enthusiasts is the fact that we don't just eat up the standard layout without questioning it. I like seeing a strong philosophy behind a layout. In this case, I have to say, the philosophy is "well, this is what gamers and casual users want, enthusiasts will still buy it." Yes, PCB programmability is great, but that is only half of making a keyboard with perfect layout.

Now, the lack of options for other switches/barebones option. From my talks with MD and the IC guys it sounds like it really wouldn't be much cheaper to provide a barebones version as it would require more packaging options. This is a sound point for sure. And again, why Gateron/Cherry/etc switches aren't being offered, I can't say. Being hot-swappable, it will naturally be easy to stick whatever switches you want in still, so this lack of switch options isn't really a big deal in my opinion. RGB lighting is fine, but personally, I've no use or desire for it. I won't avoid a keyboard with it, but I won't use it when I have it either. If I had a choice, I'd go for the underglow over switch lighting every time. No point having top tier lighting with caps that don't show it off, and the caps in my case would be gone immediately and replaced with Cherry profile caps.

So it is a mixed bag for me as an enthusiast buyer. I understand the K-Type. I understand the emphasis on RGB, as the gamer/casual market adore RGB and crazy lighting tricks and modes. I understand the low profile case. It is relatively cheap and a lot of gamers and transplants from the gamer community like the looks. I also understand this case design is clearly why no layout options are offered, along with the complexity of the PCB making that task difficult (but not impossible). I understand how much work went into this keyboard, it IS a great keyboard that is clearly very thought out. Details like the magnetic feet and dual USB C ports are very additions.

I honestly just can't help but think the K-Type would have done its very best with two distinct variants. Sell the first one as it is now. Find a few ways (like cheap laser etched caps, cheaper switches) to make it truly a great board in the price range of most gamers/casual users looking to invest in something better than the Dell dome they have at their desk. THEN give the enthusiast a real TKL. Get rid of the RGB in exchange for a PCB with the layouts we are used to. Alt. layouts mean a plate, and a plate means low profile cases are a bad idea. Give us the angled high profile case to give the keyboard a more classic look.

TL:DR - the K-Type is an exceptionally well executed keyboard. The build quality is great, the small details are beyond any "stock" mechanical keyboard, and the programmability and open source aspects are brilliant. There is inherently nothing at all wrong with it at all. Amazing keyboard. It simply lacks a lot of things that a lot of real enthusiasts want and has replaced them with things that the casual/gamer market want, and the lack of options mean many of us would have to settle for something that isn't quite ideal, and settling for a $200 keyboard can be a hard pill to swallow.

[livingspeedbump]

Which one would hit more boxes for my case, True or Clear?

I feel like the True would be better for you. Lighter at first so no cramped fingers, but the heavier bottoming out weight means it will be easier to train yourself not to bottom out and make that process a comfortable one.

[ohaimark]

Learning about the quality of the aluminum case is starting to sway my opinion a bit. Most aluminum upper cases/plates in the TKL market have been brick shithouses (a la Magicforce 68) or thin enough to result in significant bounce (Whitefox). It sounds like the fit, finish, and stability of the K-Type could merit its higher price tag.

After seeing many standard sandwich-case designs, that was part of what led to my skepticism.

From my talks with MD and the IC guys it sounds like it really wouldn't be much cheaper to provide a barebones version as it would require more packaging options.

Still doubtful about that, but whatever. You have a box that is designed to hold the keyboard with switches and caps. Less the switches and caps, the keyboard will still take up the same space on 5/6 faces. Stuffing a foam block or some bubble wrap on the sixth face is the ONLY necessary change. That's why I think all the packaging arguments are bullshit.

I will never see the numbers or actual documents that describe the packaging changes required (though I will see unboxing videos, which will confirm or debunk my theory that the packaging argument is bullshit). I think it's more likely that forced complete purchases keep costs down for complete-keyboard buyers by forcing bulk quantities to be sold.

If one gave an assembled barebones option, the net result would be fewer switches and keycaps purchased or used. That would increase the cost for complete keyboard (base + switches + caps) buyers due to unnecessary inventory or smaller quantity purchases.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It simply lacks a lot of things that a lot of real enthusiasts want and has replaced them with things that the casual/gamer market want, and the lack of options mean many of us would have to settle for something that isn't quite ideal, and settling for a $200 keyboard can be a hard pill to swallow.

Basically this. My reaction was, oh no not another stupid floating switches keyboard. (Hence my topic created to rant about them, in which I didn't name any names — two years of Input Club work to come up with a floating design!)

It feels like it's focused too much on bling, but very expensive bling. I promised to quit trying to convince anyone of the wisdom of a comprehensive, modular, OS-independent controller, and it looks like it may have at least some of this, but like most projects in the keyboard community it's so terribly documented I have no idea what's going on. Most of the time it seems that information is disseminated in secret handshakes and Borg collective–like mind sharing instead of public documentation, and I've stopped even caring trying to figure out what's going on.

Tai-Hao keycaps are nicely made, but that random mix of textual and ugly graphical legends looks awful. Also, Tai-Hao seem to be targeting useless backlighting efforts, hence the single-row legends: single-row legends scream out "we can't do backlighting properly". That's a very bad message to send out on something this expensive when the switches are meant to be properly lit. Logitech have some clean aesthetic backlit keyboards with fully-lit two-row legends that look really nice — I just object to the huge gap above the function keys, as it would eat desk space I can't spare. It's funny to think that Logitech are actually leading with aesthetics now above everyone else.

The enthusiast market is very much mix and match, and we need options. I want ISO 75% for example, with the RHS having delete on the same row it is normally, followed by home and end, NOT page up/down as home/end are used in text editing in combination with shift and ctrl and that's where you really want to avoid getting tangled with Fn. Use Fn for the arrows for page up/down. The only way to get this would be if one vendor made the physical keyboard (Vortex I guess, as they seem to do a good job), I:C made the switches and firmware (Vortex firmware is terrible) and someone else arranged for the keycaps. You just can't pre-package this kind of thing.

Vortex have gone down a much better route, and I'm guessing that the dearth of 75% options is because nobody wants them. Three years and counting and the paint'n'laser¹ keycaps are holding up. They just need some decent firmware!

[Wodan]

Regarding the massive build quality, I was a little irritated by the MD spec:
Weight: 34 oz (964 g)

Considering the 65% Whitefox is ~750gr with caps, this means the Whitefox has 77% the weight at 70% the size ROUGHLY.
So I would be expecting a very similair "massivenes" of the keyboard.

The switches just sound like another one of these custom Chinese switches we see popping up on a monthly basis. And all the magic is supposed to be in the springs ... ?

I mean there are dozens of different replacement springs for MX switches out there and you hardly ever find two people loving the same variant. Hard to imagine we're now seeing the one spring to rule them all ...

But that's just me being a grumpy hardcore nerd with exotic switch preferences down to the color of the nail polish of the girl packing them for shipping.

What really alienates me is the nuclear RGB holocaust that seems to be the major selling point of this keyboard. Along with that nasty compromise you always get when desperately needing backlight supporting keycaps, this keyboard is just not aimed at ticking enthusiast checklists obviously. I guess we got the Whitefox for that purpose

So maybe I just have to accept I am not part of the target audience for this product and wait for the switches to be available individually to give them a test ride.

[seebart]

Why is this even being hyped so hard?

[Wodan]

It's been under development for several years and has some _BIG_ names behind it.

[seebart]

It's been under development for several years and has some _BIG_ names behind it.

In that case let's hope they can implement their plans.

[chuckdee]

It's been under development for several years and has some _BIG_ names behind it.

In that case let's hope they can implement their plans.

1575 purchased so far is nothing to sneeze at.

[livingspeedbump]

Learning about the quality of the aluminum case is starting to sway my opinion a bit. Most aluminum upper cases/plates in the TKL market have been brick shithouses (a la Magicforce 68) or thin enough to result in significant bounce (Whitefox). It sounds like the fit, finish, and stability of the K-Type could merit its higher price tag.

After seeing many standard sandwich-case designs, that was part of what led to my skepticism.

From my talks with MD and the IC guys it sounds like it really wouldn't be much cheaper to provide a barebones version as it would require more packaging options.

Still doubtful about that, but whatever. You have a box that is designed to hold the keyboard with switches and caps. Less the switches and caps, the keyboard will still take up the same space on 5/6 faces. Stuffing a foam block or some bubble wrap on the sixth face is the ONLY necessary change. That's why I think all the packaging arguments are bullshit.

Well I can't comment on what "much cheaper" actually equates to dollar wise. Nor is that part my argument, I'm just going by what I've been told. I assumed it was for money reasons, and to be frank I would be 100% with that explanation as well. I want to support the Input club. I want them to be funded well, earn revenue, and continue to make projects. So, I'm slightly skeptical as well, but I also don't immediately assumes lies! from people I trust and respect either. In reality I'm sure it's slightly more complicated that the common knowledge we have, but that doesn't mean that isn't viability in the answer.

[lekashman]

I can answer a bit about this.

We are experimenting with nicer packaging, because this is the most work we've ever put into a product. Modular packaging that can account for different volumes is more expensive than a single design that we can reliably re-use for a keyboard and a cable + keycap tools. You also have to take into account the inherent complexity it adds to the entire process to handle product options that deliver a non-functional product. I don't mean "broken", but for a normal person a keyboard without either keycaps, or switches, or both is completely non-functional. Many mistakes have been made in the past with regard to fulfillment on our keyboards, and a small fortune has been spent returning products, sending out replacements, and essentially making the situation right. It’s also much more difficult to develop an accurate quality control process if we have to account for keyboards that don’t have switches or keycaps.

If we design the K-Type to default to a single design, with a few switch variations (originally just 3, though we expanded it), and 1 packaging set, we reduce complexity dramatically. Warehouse employees don't have to open boxes to verify kit vs finished product, everything is simpler. If you do happen to get the wrong product, you still would have a working keyboard, which is a much better experience than having to wait months while holding onto something you can’t use. You'll notice that we hit the price point of $199 for the K-Type. This keyboard should be more expensive, it has a lot of things in it that have never been done before, but having it be more expensive makes it inaccessible to the general public. So I ask that you please don't point fingers because we actively chose to save money on packaging so we could hit an attractive price point and put more of our budget into the product itself.

As to the request for multiple layouts, unfortunately there are real physical constraints at play. The hot swap modules are soldered onto the PCB which means that overlapping holes aren’t possible in the way we’ve done in our other products. This means that in order to support multiple layouts not only would we need multiple plates, but also multiple PCBs -- or at least differently assembled PCBs. The same issue occurs with SMD LEDs when you are trying to properly align the LEDs to the switch light pipes. There are naturally solutions to these problems, but they all come at a much higher expense, and as mentioned above, we’ve taken careful and creative consideration to make this as affordable as possible.

[livingspeedbump]

I figured something of the sort in regards to packaging/costs. Massdrop has really stepped up the packaging game over the years. The packaging of the WhiteFox was surprisingly good, as with a few of their recent custom projects. I commend them for recognizing the importance of good packaging, as it really helps set the tone for what comes out of the box. I've no doubts the K-Type will have a great presentation when they ship.

Again, I personally understand the decisions that were made. They all make sense. No aspect of the keyboard makes me feel like attention to detail was lost on it. I think, it would be an obvious assumption though, to recognize that a portion of the hardcore enthusiast community would think a standard layout, low profile, RGB tkl would be slightly bland though.

Personally, I feel like the price is well warranted here, for the record. I didn't mention that before and saw that was being discussed.

At this point we all know about the Kira as well (!!!!), something that seems to be aimed at the enthusiast market far more than gamers/casual users, so I feel like this balance between who the keyboards are aimed at is actually very good.

[ohaimark]

I can buy the second QC process increasing costs. You'd need to develop a machine that shorts all of the switch pins simultaneously to test NKRO. Other than that, the LEDs should be easy to eyeball.

Sounds like your fulfillment process needs attention, though. That is YOUR problem as a company. Mistakes during that phase should be minimal to begin with. Leaving out barebones models because you can't handle them is sort of a slap to the community, and if this is going to be standard operating procedure in the future it will be disappointing.

Warehouse employees should be the absolute last step in the sorting process for keyboards. In fact, they shouldn't need to check them at all. I'm not an armchair quarterback in that regard. I worked in a warehouse. Do your employees open boxes to check every keyboard for its switch type before shipping it? If they do check for switch type, that's a problem. The keyboards should be separated in advance with near-complete accuracy.

If the warehouse employees aren't checking for switches, why would they need to check for barebones models? Alternately, why would barebones models add time to your process if they're already checking for switch type?

As for the modular packaging, you'd be looking at adding volume on one face. You would design a single packing type for the complete version and add an insert for the barebones models. Slap a foam block on top of the area where the keycaps and switches would go and it will fill the same volume as a regular version. How much would such a block cost?

I also understand the physical layout issues, and that was never my complaint. If you're CNC'ing a solid case and custom designing PCBs, that's expected.

Finally, did you build the K-Type for the general public or the community? I realize that Deskthority is a small part of the community, but there are many other people out there who would have liked a barebones keyboard. Most of those people are community members.

[lekashman]

We wanted to build a bridge keyboard, something that enthusiasts and the general public would like, while also making an RGB keyboard no one had to apologize for.

The whole reason that we incorporated hot-swap technology into this was to address your exact concern regarding kits. If you want to turn it into a kit, you can easily pull out the switches and caps, making every keyboard a "kit" if you want it to be.

With regard to the logistics and process issues, I understand that you have insight and experience with shipping, so your understanding of it is pretty good and more in depth than the average person. Please understand that Input Club is not a logistics company, and our expertise is in designing and making keyboards, not setting up advanced fulfillment operations. We do a pretty good job, and can always be improving our methods, but I don't think there is any shame in designing the K-Type to be easy to ship. This reduces fulfillment time, makes everything less expensive, and helps the normal purchaser far, far more than it impacts the serious enthusiast, especially when considering that the keyboard is hot-swap capable.

[kekstee]

It's nice to hear some more level headed opinions on the whole thing. I would love to test the light Halo switches against my ErgoClears, since the force graph suggests a very similar behavour of bump/actuation being close to the bottom out force. Of course I can't take decent measurements.

There are basically two killers for me here, one completely down to personal taste, and another kind of the target audience problem that was mentioned earlier.

Because for one, I just don't like the look of a low profile TKL, no matter the quality. 60% is the largest than can get away with that. On the other hand building a high profile alu TKL case is out of the question, I guess.

And the other issue is the amount of sacrifices that were made to go full RGB. I mean it's cool, but it lead to flipped switches which are a pain with aftermarket keycaps. And the keycaps are frankly the very first thing I would ditch here. RGB can be fun, but I'd never go for clear lettering, especially not if it's cramped to the top of the key like that to give an even light. I can see why all this was done, but in my mind it puts the board a bit uncomfortably close to the compromises of other, much cheaper RGB boards.

I do believe you that your pricing isn't a scam though. Getting that backlight and a decent alu case going probably wasn't easy.

So, good luck, it seems to find some takers so far. Don't know if that over or undershoots your expectations. :D

//edit

If this all works out it might be interesting to get a 60% with similar specs going actually. If it could support some of the popular layout choices and programmabiliy of that size it would truly make all the enthusiast options very accessible.

[ohaimark]

I accept the premise that it is a "bridge" keyboard, then. It has been presented as an enthusiast keyboard to some of us, which drove some of my skepticism.

The issue I face is paying more for Tai-Hao caps and switches which I will likely remove. That's one more bundle of unused stuff I'll have laying around. If other enthusiasts are willing to accept that, cool. I'm tempted by the keyboard, even with the unnecessary items and the associated cost.

The best thing you could do is work with your manufacturer to pre-sort the keyboards. Something as simple as a stamp on the packing (applied immediately after production and during packaging) with a symbol indicating switch type or barebones status would be an excellent way to relieve your warehouse staff.

It would also shift the onus from your staff to the manufacturer. You could negotiate contractual fees to cover return costs, for example, if the manufacturer mislabels some of the keyboards.

[keycapper]

$200 is too expensive for me. I just bought a 60% for $110. But I didn't like the thin stock keycaps, so I bought a nice set for $50. And the case was just plastic. I replaced it with aluminium for another $70. Now I have a board I like and definitely I spent less than $200. Oh wait..

[kekstee]

Yeah, the price is not so much the issue. More the value it suggests with those RGB compromises and keycaps.