Why do I type faster on a membrane keyboard

[ruhtraeel]

So I just got an Azio Levetron Clicker, and it seems like I still type faster on a membrane keyboard. I tried 10fastfingers.com/typing-test/english
www.typeonline.co.uk/typingspeed.php

With my mechanical keyboard, I typed at around 105wpm for the first test and 90 for the second. I decided to take it again in my university using their light plasticy Dell keyboards, and I got 115wpm for the first test and 104 for the second, and it feels like I type faster.

Why is this? Could it really be that I like membrane keyboards more than mechanical ones?

[fossala]

#1, You bought a crap mechaniucal keyboard.
#2, You have to get used to typing on mechanical keyboards.
#3, Just because you type faster doesn't mean it is comftable, I also type faster on a cheap HP keyboard I have, if I type for more than 20mins though, my fingers hurt.

[bhtooefr]

My fastest boards are an Aspire One D250's keyboard (119 WPM), and a Model F 122-key (118 WPM).

Guess which one I'd rather type on all day?

[ruhtraeel]

While the mechanical keyboard does seem to feel better while typing, I rarely type for extended periods of time, since programming requires more thinking than typing.

For $30, I think the keyboard was worth it purely because it feels better to play games on.

Also, how many grams of pressure does the switch on the Clicker take to press down? Is there any way to give it less resistance, or does that just come from heavy usage? It just seems like mechanical keyboards in general, after trying a lot of them out, seem to be more comfortable at first but end up being less efficient than membrane keyboards.


I still love my Compaq beige membrane keyboard, and it seems like in my case, a more expensive mechanical keyboard just isn't worth the money if it is intended to be used for all tasks.

[Jim66]

I've been known to type faster on domes.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Also, how many grams of pressure does the switch on the Clicker take to press down?

Simplest test is to stack coins of known weight onto the key until it drops. The US nickel and UK 20p are both 5 g and are good candidates. Officially, nobody knows, because nobody has a clue who APC are. Simplified Alps switches are infamous for being difficult to press — it's a combination of the design itself, and the fact that the clone makers got all the tolerances completely wrong.

Be careful about force — the force curve is far more critical. You will notice that, like a cheap membrane switch, it takes a lot of force to get the key moving, then it drops to the bottom. This high preload makes the switch feel far stiffer than a switch with low or zero preload, even if both have the same peak force. It's why a 45 cN Topre switch feels completely different to (and significanly stiffer than) a 45 cN Cherry switch, because they have completely different force curves.

(Ha. The title image just rotated to a darker image, and I thought I was losing consciousness for a second :)

[bhtooefr]

Looks like this has the APC BSW 070WH, which is a 70 cN switch I believe.

(055WH is 55 cN.)

Cheap Alps knockoff, rated at 70 cN? Yeah, that's gonna get real ugly, real fast.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm seeing APC BSW 055WH for that keyboard mostly (including the Newegg spec) but 070WH on the AZIO website, so it looks like it depends.

I've never found any spec anywhere for either switch. Feel free to update http://deskthority.net/wiki/APC_switch with any references you have for it.

[ruhtraeel]

Good tip, I'll try with quarters (Apparently a Canadian quarter is 4.4g) when I get home, and also send an email to Azio to ask about the switch type.

So at least I know I'm not the only one who types faster on a rubber dome keyboard.

I think it's mainly just because the ones on the Clicker take more force than rubber dome keyboards to press down. Hopefully that changes with heavy usage, because I believe that is the only reason why I am typing faster on rubber domes right now.

[bhtooefr]

If it's taking more force than an average rubber dome, it's almost certainly a 70 cN switch.

And, I don't have any confirmation of those specs, just this: http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/wha ... t1676.html

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Good tip, I'll try with quarters (Apparently a Canadian quarter is 4.4g) when I get home, and also send an email to Azio to ask about the switch type.

If you get any sense out of them, see if you can find out who makes the switch. I sent them a message about it a week ago or so, no response, don't imagine I'll get one. Nor anything from Alps, Seiya, Seiko UK, or SIIG. Xiang Min (XM) were the only company who responded at all — too bad about the language barrier.

So at least I know I'm not the only one who types faster on a rubber dome keyboard.

Bad conclusion. You type faster on that specific rubber dome board, compared to that specific Alps clone switch. Rubber dome boards have a wide variety of force curves and peak forces, and Alps clones are anything but popular.

In addition, typing and gaming have different needs: Cherry MX black, another stiff switch, is good for gaming, but far fewer people enjoy typing on it.

[bhtooefr]

Honestly, if you want to try a better metal spring keyboard... I'd try Cherry MX blue or buckling spring next.

As you mentioned a Canadian quarter, that may mean that Unicomp won't be totally insanely priced (I'm not sure how much it costs to actually get a Unicomp board into Canada, though - shipping is likely cheap enough, customs may be another issue?)

I would not try an IBM Model M - they tend to be stiffer than Unicomp boards in my experience, and I think they're a bit fatiguing. A Model F could be interesting to try (a bit stiffer than a Unicomp board, but lower preload and sharper tactility, so they're not fatiguing), but they can be a bit harder to find and require more work to adapt to a modern computer (unless it's an AT keyboard, and those are missing a lot of keys).

MX blue is going to be lighter than both, though. And, you might prefer that. I prefer the precision of a Model F or a Unicomp Model M, both for typing and gaming. (I still like MX blue for typing, but I dislike it for gaming.)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If it's taking more force than an average rubber dome, it's almost certainly a 70 cN switch

Tricky conclusion. Depends on the dome. Some domes are nearly linear and spongy, others are very tactile.

He says "light plasticy Dell keyboards" and Dell changed their force curve radically a couple of years ago, and the new boards we get shipped with machines have soft, smooth domes. This may vary between countries and of course between product lines (will see when my new Dell comes next week, as they force a big fugly multimedia keyboard on you).

XM claim a ±15 gf tolerance on their switches, so who knows, APC could be worse!

Chances are you're probably right, but it's really surprising the difference that force curve makes. Also, the XM switches in my Tactile Pro 3 are way over spec — supposed to be 60±15 gf, and I was getting 80—100 gf in tests. I have no reason to believe that APC have any remote interest in producing consistent batches, so the spec may not match the manufactured product :)

[bhtooefr]

Except even the soft, smooth boards that I'm deploying to users are stiffer than a Cherry MX blue, IMO. (I should nickel one, I've even got a bunch of nickels at work.)

The older, snappier boards that Dell shipped back in the GX620 era, though, even after 5+ years, are actually decently sharply tactile for a rubber dome.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

MX blues do feel very light.

The "midnight grey" Dell rubberdomes were tactile, but in a horrible rattling, grinding, clogged-up-with-wet-sand way. The black model that followed was just stiff and spongy. Horrible range of keyboards. Complete garbage.

That's what I was so eager to get away with when I discovered mechanical keyboards :)

[ruhtraeel]

So I tried the coin trick with pennies, and it took roughly 26-27 pennies for the key to depress. A Canadian penny is 2.35 grams, so apparently it took around 61 to 63 grams of pressure for the key to go down.

[lxrogers]

tl:dr you aren't used to a mechanical keyboard
For me, the activation of blue switches was different than rubber domes in that my weaker fingers (index, pinky) could click keys as fast as my strong fingers could. So, while before I was used to pressing sequential letters with a stronger and weaker finger at the same time because my weaker fingers would be slower, I had to get used to actually being a bit slower with my weaker fingers or else I would type them in the wrong order.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've attached a spec (in Chinese!) of all the current Taiwan Tai-Hao APC brand switches. From this, you can determine the specified force, as they're all colour-coded. Red Alps! Do want!

Unfortunately I can't put an image through Google Translate, so I can't easily translate the rest of what's on the page. I may find this out from Tai-Hao.

According to this spec, there is no 70 g switch at all! I've also asked them where the APC BSW 070WH comes into it. I only have the spec of the 055WH at the moment.

According to Felly Du at Taiwan Tai-Hao, they've been making switches since before the 80s, their switches are patented (I've not verified this), and they copied no-one, so if they're telling the truth, they were possibly the creator of the four-tab design. (As noted yesterday, they're also responsible for the non-Alps-compatible Aruz switch, which is a discontinued product range) They also sold unbranded switches bearing only numbers, for other companies' keyboards. I've suggested that they still must have copied Alps, surely? Unless Alps copied Tai-Hao, as the Z mount design was used for other switches before Alps moved to the most famous design (that we have no name for yet, possibly "Alps leaf spring").

[Daniel Beardsmore]

English version of the above posted to http://deskthority.net/wiki/APC_switch along with all the switch part numbers. The chart omits the APC BSW 075WH and APC BSW 075WH (75 cN) and the APC BSW 070WH (70 cN) is discontinued.

The current approach is that they didn't "copy" from Alps, they "learnt from" Alps ;-)

[GH1391401]

For me there is always some period of adjustment (e.g. going from mx blue to buckling spring) - the real test is how the hands feel after hours of typing.

[ruhtraeel]

Haha, the Chinese translations are funny. The greenish turquoise switch is called "blue", the actual blue one is called "pale", and the brown one is called "tea" lol (yes the one that you drink)

So the one on the Azio Levetron Clicker got discontinued? From the box, it shows that the switches are white, and from my tests, it's closer to around 65g of pressure to actuate versus the 70 that they stated. TBH I would be happier with a switch that took less effort to press, but the Azio Levetron Clicker was the only one that was under $50 that I could find. Hopefully once I wear it in, it will take less effort to press.

EDIT:
I can translate, but it's pretty much exactly what you would expect them to say
The first column is the colour switch obviously
The second column is whether or not the keys make sounds when you press them (the first one on the list doesn't while the rest do)
Third and fourth are self explanatory
The last is the expected life of the keyboard (20 million)

[laffindude]

青 is not pale. It can be used to describe both blue and green in color. Etymology wise, it is closer to green. MX blue is called 青 too. Calling the teal one blue is very odd. 藍=blue. MX Brown is called tea. Nothing new there. Tea is used as color. Not sure why that's a funny concept. Lots of colors are named after items. Orange, salmon, lime, indigo, turquoise etc etc.

[ruhtraeel]

青 is not pale. It can be used to describe both blue and green in color. Etymology wise, it is closer to green. MX blue is called 青 too. Calling the teal one blue is very odd. 藍=blue. MX Brown is called tea. Nothing new there. Tea is used as color. Not sure why that's a funny concept. Lots of colors are named after items. Orange, salmon, lime, indigo, turquoise etc etc.

Wow, I've never heard 茶 being referred to as brown. I've always used 啡

Also, at that colour, I would just go 绿色

[laffindude]

Well, there are a ton of words that can be used as brown. 啡 is a semi new usage, coming from 咖啡色. 褐would probably be the more traditional usage.

Edit: Your unit is off, 億 would be 100mil ;o~

[ruhtraeel]

Well, there are a ton of words that can be used as brown. 啡 is a semi new usage, coming from 咖啡色. 褐would probably be the more traditional usage.

Edit: Your unit is off, 億 would be 100mil ;o~

I counted wrong from a measure I rarely get to use -_-
My GZ/HK parents use 啡色
I'm so bad at languages... my friends complain about my sloppy English and my relatives complain about my muttery semi-rude Cantonese

Ex. I still can't think of an English word for 爽 texture


Do mechanical keyboards take less effort to press down once they're worn in?

[laffindude]

Ah, Cantonese.

The lack of proficiency in languages happen pretty often among bilinguals. It is just a sign of you don't use either enough

爽... pleasurable?

[bhtooefr]

Some designs do loosen up once broken in, some designs stiffen up with age/use, and some designs pretty much stay the same.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

White will be 65 gf; "65g and 75g is the same stem color – White and Black. 65gw is always used in our 7D KB and 75gw is sold by us for some project used."

I've attached the copy of the picture with translations. There is one tactile and one clicky for each of 45, 55, 65 and 75 gf.

[ruhtraeel]

The image changed... I'm guessing the second one is right, because it would seem weird that only one of the switches doesn't make noise and the rest have identical pairs of switches

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yeah, you're right, they messed up the first one :) I'll let them know.

I wish I could type the letters, but I can't.