What costs in Topres? I don't get it.

[ripster]

5 Cents of food coloring in plastic keys is where the REAL money is at.

Although I DID find this creative.

http://i.imgur.com/U6mte.jpg

Thanks! It was the boss's idea. Each different colour represents where you should place a different finger, e.g you only hit red keys with your little fingers, green is left hand index etc.

[TacticalCoder]

EliteKeyboards sell HHKB2 Pro for $300. I don't understand the price

I don't understand the high price either but I still just ordered a brand new one (I'm in Europe) because I decided that after all these years hesitating I wanted to give it a try.

I also know that should I find it terribly bad (which I think is unlikely), I'd still probably be able to resell it without losing too much money

[ajdane]

I just purchased a HHKB pro 2 from a member on here. And I really dig the feel of the Topre switches, they are (to me atleast) really satisfying to use, both in feeling and in sound.

The layout is taking a little getting used too, but i can definitely see the appeal. Especially since im used to ISO layouts and Coding with an ANSI is to me better, easier access to '/.;[]\ . Right now im just switching to my local layout when i need access to 'special characters'. But i guess i really should look into learning the US(ansi) international layout.

Dont get me wrong the switch has impacted my wpm rather brutally, but then again its less bad than i expected.

[codehead]

Please don't steer this thread into a wrong direction of just saying "hey it's very good". Remember my original question and arguments.

For example, so ajdane likes it. Well is it worth the investment? Does it feel good enough to justify the cost of $200 - $300 instead of $20 - $100 Buckling Spring, Cherry or ALPS board?

So far, people seem to agree that Topre boards are excellent but they are over-priced.

[longweight]

I think everyone here that owns one has already said that they can't justify the price but it was well worth it.

You need to buy one to know, take the chance and you will be rewarded. Just don't buy a Realforce, I couldn't spend all day looking at the vast expanse of plastic above the function keys.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

Please don't steer this thread into a wrong direction of just saying "hey it's very good". Remember my original question and arguments.

For example, so ajdane likes it. Well is it worth the investment? Does it feel good enough to justify the cost of $200 - $300 instead of $20 - $100 Buckling Spring, Cherry or ALPS board?

So far, people seem to agree that Topre boards are excellent but they are over-priced.

you aren't looking for an answer, you just want to flame.
e.g. where do you find a $20 Cherry or Alps board?
or a $100 Buckling Spring keyboard in Finland?

[longweight]

Also nothing is over-priced, they might be making lots of money on each one but that doesn't mean that it is over-priced just in demand.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

Also nothing is over-priced, they might be making lots of money on each one but that doesn't mean that it is over-priced just in demand.

to make lots of money you need to sell a lot of them, what I doubt

[longweight]

PFU probably aren't trying to make money out of it, just raise the profile of their switches.

[webwit]

One thing which makes them substantially more expensive (although not $300 expensive) is that Topre has the best quality control of the business. It's professional grade, not consumer grade like most other keyboards such as all well-known Cherry based ones. For example, you cannot afford to miss a 0 in a bank, hence banks buy professional grade keyboards. An example of such quality control is that each key is individually tested by robot, on parameters such as the required force. It is of another level, and this costs money.

[codehead]

you aren't looking for an answer, you just want to flame.
e.g. where do you find a $20 Cherry or Alps board?
or a $100 Buckling Spring keyboard in Finland?

Nah, I'm not. I was already leaving this thread but just wanted to nitpick a bit when people didn't give any arguments, you know... webwit, for example, has given very good and insightful answers which are probably very true. But anyway, I've gotten my answers, will give the Topres another try once I get my hands on them

[codehead]

The result for me is:
I'm buying switch bag from Mr. Interface and if I turn out to like Topre switches, I will buy HHKB2 and pay the price

[002]

webwit summarises it very well I think. It's too easy for people to dismiss Topre boards just because they employ rubber in the switch mechanism. They have made no sacrifices when it comes to reliability and this is why their market has largely been professionals up until now.

An example that comes to mind for me is when I first got a Realforce and noticed that some of the keys weren't lined up nicely. Topre's response was basically that the cylindrical plunger was the best design to enable the user to hit even the edges of the keycap without resistance, and as a result of this commitment to usability, the unfortunate side-effect was the odd "wobbly key". Interestingly enough, some people have commented that this appears to have been resolved on the HHKB Type-S...something that I will be looking into this weekend

[002]

codehead if you are interested, I have a Realforce making it's way around Europe at the moment.
It would give you a chance to try the switches on a full board.

[codehead]

Excellent contribution, sir! Sure I'll participate.

[Charlie_Brown_MX]

Nah, I'm not. I was already leaving this thread but just wanted to nitpick a bit when people didn't give any arguments, you know... webwit, for example, has given very good and insightful answers which are probably very true. But anyway, I've gotten my answers, will give the Topres another try once I get my hands on them

A big part of why people couldn’t give “very good and insightful answers” is that the reasoning behind why a company does something is usually not explained to the public. I work for a manufacturer,¹ and we certainly don’t pre-emptively explain why Widget No. 1176 costs what it does. Maybe, if pushed by a really big customer, we *might*, but it’s certainly not shared voluntarily. That’s pretty much just par for the course.

I’d be keen to find out where you’re getting cheap ALPS keyboards from too. I’ve been scavenging them for over two years now, and it’s only through coincidence and luck that I’ve managed to get them cheaply.

—
¹ Not a manufacturer of keyboards, but the principles and rationale are almost certainly the same.

[webwit]

This is true. The quality control info comes from an insider who got a tour of the Topre facilities.

[codehead]

Fellas, the price range I gave was too low yes, but that wasn't the point, the point was that the HHKB2 price is of a completely different magnitude than the others. I could not understand this. Now I do.

But anyways, at least with $40 you can find pretty much mint Dell AT10x boards. Obviously used of course

[mintberryminuscrunch]

so now you are comparing a 15 years old, used keyboard to a new one?

[codehead]

no

[longweight]

The price also secures an element of exclusivity which we all like

[cinnamoncider]

Same here. I still don't get it. Shed some light on me please. This premium feel that anyone says can be subjective and may depend on the person who uses it or maybe just some placebo effect because of its high price - making you think that it really is that good. I haven't tried one. But as the spec sheets says - topre switches are made from rubber domes and springs, with some plastic of course. But is it really that expensive to make? Or maybe there's only a limited number of topre switches/keyboard available in the market or in production that it makes its price so high.

[tlt]

It's made in Japan so the workers gets properly paid that's a factor. The volume are not that big probably. The quality is really good. And it's suppose to be premium so people expects it to be a little expensive. I suspect that the upcoming Topre switch board made in China will be a bit cheaper but they are still premium products so they won't be cheap. As with most categories of products you don't get the most for your money by getting the most expensive stuff.

[kyb]

I haven't tried one.

And that's the problem here. Just try a HHKB and you will see the light

[cinnamoncider]

I haven't tried one.

And that's the problem here. Just try a HHKB and you will see the light

I think you didn't catch my question. What I'm asking is what make topre switches/keyboard expensive. I'm fair aware of this typing in heaven feeling when using this switches.

...and yes, I haven't tried one. I'm still saving up my money for a HHKB. This will cost me for about a price two decent mkbs .

[adhoc]

Well coming from POM caps with blue mx switches, I am seriously falling in love with my HHKB, which is PBT (apart from space) and topre.

POM -> more slippery, more smooth surface, PBT -> more rough, more frictional surface
Is either better? Hmm, I can't say, I love both of them.

Blue switches -> love them for the clicking, love them for the ability to "float type", but more difficult to double tap
Topre -> love them for softness, love them for thocking sound, can't float but can double tap a key more easily

So, based on this, I can't call either better. I will NOT call topre switches superior. I will NOT call PBT superior. They're just different.

That said, the layout is simply AWESOME. The way modifiers are encased is better than what I've ever seen. I have not weighted the keys, but they seem really uniform to me. The form factor is great and provides great accessibility to all shortcuts one needs when operating with either unix or windows (I work with both). The case has no flex to it (hell, you could tilt my previous Cherry by just looking bad at it) -> however this argument has no value because you will never flex your keyboard, to be honest! Turning the space bar around makes it exactly perpendicular to your thumb, which makes me question myself how have I EVER used a space bar differently! The design is the best I have ever seen (but this is completely subjective). Also, the keys do not wobble. Regardless where you press it, it will not wobble, not even the bigger ones.

From all cherry boards I've seen and/or tested, none of them are of this quality apart from some korean customs, which will cost more than a HHKB. I wrote for the HHKB because that's the one I have experience with, I do not have experience with Realforce so I can not discuss those.

[M'er Forever]

[Account and posts deleted on request]

[M'er Forever]

[Account and posts deleted on request]

[jbl]

I think there are two separate questions here.

1. How much does the cost structure for producing Topre capacitive switches play into pricing? In other words, is the pricing driven by the cost of production or simply by what the market is willing to pay for the product?

To this question, I have no idea. I think arguments regarding the cost of labor in Japan (vs. China) and quality control are certainly valid. My Realforce certainly feels like a top flight piece of kit and feels finished to exacting standards. It feels like a Bentley to other Nice Keyboards' Lexus or Benz (to use an automotive analogy).

2. For those who have paid retail for a Topre based keyboard and enjoy it, what makes the price something worth paying?

To this question, I don't think there's an objective answer. We all experience keyboards differently. For me, compared to my MX brown board, the Topre switches feel smoother and the keyboard as a whole is quieter. The aforementioned quality feel also plays into my positive feelings. Topre switches have rubber domes as a component, but to my hands and my style of typing, the experience is not like a rubber dome. I find the switch more tactile than a typical rubber dome, smoother than MX browns, and with a spring-back that I haven't felt on any other board.

I also think the switch mechanism itself is interesting and worth owning as someone who is appreciative of good keyboards.

Is it "the best"? Only you can tell that after experiencing one for yourself and comparing with other keyboards. Is it unique enough to be interesting? I think so.

[adhoc]

To be honest this thread looks like "I don't own one, but I sure do know I hate it a lot regardless" type of thread to me.