deskthority

Hey folks, recently a discussion was raised at GeekHack about the possibility of a custom keyboard. I had an idea of what I wanted (and a few others expressed interest as well) so I created a Poll to gauge further interest. Feel free to vote on it here: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=292218

Here's the proposed attributes:

• Tenkeyless
• US ANSI layout
• PCB-mounted
• Cherry MX Clears or Reds
• Black or Industrial Gray case (hard, solid construction)
• Vintage-style white/gray doubleshots
• Vintage-style GeekHack key
• Windowed Caps and Scroll Lock keys with blue LEDs

Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see it ever happening. Getting stuff like this done either requires you to be close with an OEM or make it up entirely from scratch, which results in $350+ price range, which most people are unwilling to even consider as the past has shown...

"I hope the miniguru kit will be under 100 euro "... yeah right.

People are thinking too unrealistically for this to work, I think. Another problem is the need for equipment and knowledge. The OTD guys took several revisions for their custom boards to actually be decent. Prototyping such a project is a painful task, especially when each re-try and re-adjustment again costs you so much in tooling costs and machine leasing fees, etc...

To realistically get a project going at least the following things are needed:

1) software/firmware programmer
2) hardware guy(s) who work out a good matrix and custom controller.
3) If you want a small size keyboard, you will need the controller on board, since a Teensy or such will not fit in the case. That means you will need a PCB design guy that knows his way around micro controllers, as well.
4) If you want a metal case you need someone who REALLY knows his way around CAD design and the machines that the files are being used on. With the prices in this business you can not afford many prototypes and will have to get it right in two or three tries at most
5) Assembly - Once you got the PCB and case design done, who is gonna solder in all the parts? SMD soldering is serious business and I think most users would be afraid of it. I know for one that I am. So say you have managed to get a setup for 50 boards going, you will need someone to solder in all the parts and assemble the boards accordingly
6) Parts - Custom keycaps are somewhat easily thanks to SP, but will probably come in at about $50+ per set alone with an order of 50~100 sets. Besides that, you will need small but important parts like stabilizers. These will need to be ordered in large quantities from Cherry directly, or taken from donor boards. Option A is costy, option B pretty unrealistic

These are just some of the things to actually consider, maybe it helps in the planning. If you do indeed come up with something that gets past rough ideas, I'll gladly take a board.

Good points. Guess I jumped the gun a bit

Really I wasn't thinking realistically about actual construction yet though. Just wanted to gauge interest!

I hope to be getting a 356 mini.. the real deal.

No arrow keys? Fuuuuuuuuuu...

I just read the comments in the geekhack thread.

One of the reasons I like a full mini ala lowpoly's, and mine, at least as a first attempt at a geekhack board, is that realistically it should be easier to produce and lower costs and increase profitability if there is going to be any. You need less switches and less actual work to produce them. Plus you have the ability to undercut and compete against hhkb prices which are ridiculous.

Undercut the HHKB, LOL! I am already facepalming.

Edit: I can't wait till lowpoly releases a first price quote and crushes all these people's hope. I really don't know what they expect. How could a very limited product - something entirely designed and made from scratch ever be cheaper than a mass made product? It should be common sense.

That 356 Mini is a beast. Does it use something similar to the HHKB layout?

It does whatever you want. It has an Aikon on the pcb.

Whoah, it has Akon??

Always liked that design btw.. You access the controller from underneath the spacebar (right of the spacebar switch). No extra plugs, nothing. So sleek!

Here more about AIKON.

sixty wrote:You access the controller from underneath the spacebar (right of the spacebar switch). No extra plugs, nothing. So sleek!

Not sure why I need access to a controller

Wow, the Aikon looks cool!

sixty wrote:...
1) software/firmware programmer
2) hardware guy(s) who work out a good matrix and custom controller.
3) If you want a small size keyboard, you will need the controller on board, since a Teensy or such will not fit in the case. That means you will need a PCB design guy that knows his way around micro controllers, as well.
4) If you want a metal case you need someone who REALLY knows his way around CAD design and the machines that the files are being used on. With the prices in this business you can not afford many prototypes and will have to get it right in two or three tries at most
5) Assembly - Once you got the PCB and case design done, who is gonna solder in all the parts? SMD soldering is serious business and I think most users would be afraid of it. I know for one that I am. So say you have managed to get a setup for 50 boards going, you will need someone to solder in all the parts and assemble the boards accordingly
6) Parts - Custom keycaps are somewhat easily thanks to SP, but will probably come in at about $50+ per set alone with an order of 50~100 sets. Besides that, you will need small but important parts like stabilizers. These will need to be ordered in large quantities from Cherry directly, or taken from donor boards. Option A is costy, option B pretty unrealistic
...

These are the least problems and can be solved like nothing.

The real problem is to find enough people who agree to a specific design and are willing to pay more than for a HHKB.

I would recommend to start with the PCB. Get a universally usable PCB which comes with all thinkable switch mounts to have a good base to build a customizable keyboard.

Controller, switches etc. are not so much of a problem. There are plenty on the market.

The shell is not so easy. I would recommend to take the shell of a G81 board and cut it into bits and pieces and then glue it together as needed, to form something similar as the miniguru (ie in fact a backplate).

Hi folks,

Just wanted to give an update that 55 people are currently interested and I'm expecting that number to likely grow. The most feasible way to do this seems to get a re-branded board from a company like Diatec or Costar or similar so we don't have to worry about building and construction and all that. I am planning to get in touch with some of these companies and research feasibility and pricing.

Hi Guys,
In my memory, it has been few years making custom keyboards from KBDMania.net and OTD in Korea. Currently there are around 9~10 boards(not very sure, may be more) including The Cheat, which is due in next few months from OTD.
To give you a brief idea; Each probably cost €100~200, and that is without built. FYI, first custom, DK was around €180, and that was without switches, stabilizers, Keycaps, wire and controller. Members did put their favourite switches(among cherry MX - and after few months later Alps version of DK was in production). At that time we used existing controllers to design the PCB but currently there are some members who could design all from the scratch I guess.
My point is; Even among those 9~10 Custom boards, there are still pros and cons exist for each model.
If you compromise the cost, it is really hard to get the quality right, or may be things right.

Sixty wrote:
I can't wait till lowpoly releases a first price quote and crushes all these people's hope. I really don't know what they expect. How could a very limited product - something entirely designed and made from scratch ever be cheaper than a mass made product? It should be common sense.

http://www.otd.kr/gn/bbs/board.php?bo_t ... =448#c_558
a review of existing Korean custom mades. BTW it is written in Korean but hope you enjoy watching pictures of them.

Thanks for the info mass! Much appreciated. Those OTD keyboards are the best Cherry/Alps keyboards money can buy. I illustrated your story earlier in this picture..

Yea that OTD.kr custom tenkeyless is sick. That's partly where I got my idea from. Is there any news on that particular board? I heard they were going to be possibly available in kit form and assembled on ebay.

keyboardlover wrote:Yea that OTD.kr custom tenkeyless is sick. That's partly where I got my idea from. Is there any news on that particular board? I heard they were going to be possibly available in kit form and assembled on ebay.

Have no idea whether they had any plan selling it on ebay.
But heard a rumour that they are giving some chances for foreign members to buy The Cheat near in the future. Not sure when though.

That is a great article on OTD. I almost had forgotten about the DK variant with ALPS. I guess they only had like 20 or 30 of them after all. I am surprised there never has been an ALPS custom board again after. In theory, changing the PCB should be enough as long as you have the rest of the kit?

ALPS Winkey versions are much more rare than winkeyless ones.
Winkeyless version should built with compatible keycaps and stable. from either Sgi or Old-Dell(and from few more old ALPS). Also getting a set of nice ALPS switches are real pain.
Designed to take old Samsung DT35 rubberdome controller.

It isn't compatible with DK Cherry Housing(case) but it seems you could fit Cherry PCB & Mount into a ALPS DK Housing.
(difference comes from the outline of the mounting plate I've heard)
Also I've seen several Acrylic housings for DK ALPS.

mass wrote:Also getting a set of nice ALPS switches are real pain.

Somehow it seems easier here.. unless you want pinks or browns. Even blue ALPS seem to appear every so often in random keyboards. I still have a few boards that I don't use with blue ALPS. Personally I think blue ALPS (and the old white ones) are some of the best switches around.. but they seem to need cleaning every few years. Maybe someone should design a case sticker for ALPS switiches too

mass wrote: Designed to take old Samsung DT35 rubberdome controller.

Thats smart! I know the Cherry MX DK Saver variant uses the G80-1000 controller.

Again, thanks for your info
[/quote]

sixty wrote: Thats smart! I know the Cherry MX DK Saver variant uses the G80-1000 controller.

Yeap! GDD5YOG8X-X000 for winkeyless ones.
It wasn't easy getting hold of it at that time.

Not sure about the Winkey version...

We'll just let you guys from otd produce a deskthority branded keyboard, and to get you to do it, we'll bribe you with RGB key caps and vintage Cherry keyboards!

webwit wrote:We'll just let you guys from otd produce a deskthority branded keyboard, and to get you to do it, we'll bribe you with RGB key caps and vintage Cherry keyboards!

this would be epic, on many levels.

keyboardlover wrote:
Here's the proposed attributes:

• Tenkeyless
• US ANSI layout
• PCB-mounted
• Cherry MX Clears or Reds
• Black or Industrial Gray case (hard, solid construction)
• Vintage-style white/gray doubleshots
• Vintage-style GeekHack key
• Windowed Caps and Scroll Lock keys with blue LEDs

Agreed except for tenkeyless, pcb mounted, clears, windowed caps.


Tenkeyless
- Nice for minimalists but i need numpad. You could argue that keyboards like poker have a virtual numpad, but i don't think i'd like that.

- not sturdy for my taste. Also dirt will reach the pcb more. Easier to clean if dirt gets trap on a metal plate instead


Vintage style/gray doubleshots
- you mean cherry corp double shots ? it's going to be hard to get large quantities of them.


Windowed caps
- I like windowed keys but the fact remains it's harder to replace the full set of keys when 3 of them are windowed. Their not easy to get. It took me a while to find one off a donor board for Cherry Corp led windowed keys. Better off getting the leds integrated into top right of the casing as is the usual practice.

Tenkeyless minimalist? It's enormous still. If we finally could get grid layout for a decent price that problem would be solved, and fortunately it would finally remove the arrow section as well. Or at least get it away from the right.

I think we should get Unicomp to make us a Tenkeyless.

Moogle's out. Good to know.

It won't happen anyway unless I can find a manufacturer who can do it. Which I've had no luck with so far.

@Mass
Your link end with Login request, I think, the translator is having difficulties and am unable to check the OTD KBD. Will OTD be having an English Board soon ? similar to KBDmania.

Is the OTD keyboard on the similar line to the I-T Touch AS-KB87 ?