Keyboard design help! | Help us design a mechanical keyboard
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 15:19
by Loliplol
Hi there! My name is Karlo, I am from Croatia and I started a new company that makes computer peripherals.
I am looking for talented people interested in making a 60% mechanical keyboard, but not any kind of mechanical keyboard. We will be taking ideas from gamers what they need and then we will make it real.
So, who are we looking for?
Since people told me you are the best, this is the right forum. We are looking for talented and creative people that will work with my team and develop a new keyboard for gamers.
Patents will NOT be owned by us! Patents are yours, we just have permission to use them.
Also, if the keyboard goes in production, person who made it will get paid and (optional) a job in our company to design more great products!
Well, what we thought so far.
Aluminium case, Cherry MX Red (great for gamers), RGB lights (with computer program to control them) and a great price. Full anti-ghosting and a magnetic wrist rest (still not sure about the wrist rest).
We all know Razer keyboards are overpriced, so we will keep he price lower.
Also, if this product goes well, other products will be also designed (headphones, mouse etc.)
How to send us your ideas and patents?
Well, just post them in the reply section below Keep in mind that the case will be laser cut.
Well, patents are here to protect the person who made it, but we can do it without patents if you want.
And thanks for correcting my mistake! It's not blue, it's red.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 16:09
by Muirium
Patents are here for large companies to collect like trading cards and politicians, and then to deploy on rivals when they emerge. Including small inventors. The broader a patent, the better.
Just wait until you're sued by the big boys and need a patent lawyer. You'll learn!
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 16:14
by Loliplol
Muirium wrote: ↑Parents are here for large companies to collect like trading cards and politicians, and then to deploy on rivals when they emerge. Including small inventors. The broader a patent, the better.
Just wait until you need a patent lawyer. You'll learn!
" a patent provides, from a legal standpoint, the right to exclude others from making, using, selling, offering for sale, or importing the patented invention for the term of the patent, which is usually 20 years from the filing date"
So you recommend to stay open hardware?
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 16:16
by Plasmodium
Loliplol wrote: ↑
Well, patents are here to protect the person who made it, but we can do it without patents if you want.
And thanks for correcting my mistake! It's not blue, it's red.
I'm pretty new around here, but I've been doing a fair bit of reading about making a 60% since I decided to make my own. It seems like there have been quite a few successful group-designed keyboards made/in progress. The defining factor about most of them seems to be an open transparency in the designing/prototyping process, with input from the community listened to and evaluated (in fact, speaking as someone who is new to the community, it's a pretty defining factor about this community in general). For example, there was the Massdrop Infinity, and Matt3o's current full keyboard group build.
The other thing this community seems to like is customisability. In this community, people are united by a love of/knowledge of keyboards, but there is no shared consensus on which brand/type of switch is best (heck, as a gamer myself, I like my browns!), what layout, size etc is best. It might be best to offer it with different types of switches, LEDs optional and options for customising the firmware if you really want it to appeal to this community.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 16:30
by Loliplol
@Plasmodium
Well, that was our plan. We listen to the community, what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Of course we will offer versions of it, black/blue/red switches, RGB/one color/none, 60%/fullsized etc. We thought about the firmware, since our keyboards would come with a program to control them, re-map keys and stuff.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 16:50
by kbdfr
Loliplol wrote: ↑[…] We thought about the firmware, since our keyboards would come with a program to control them, re-map keys and stuff.
Make them entirely programmable, if possible with at least two layers
Loliplol wrote: ↑[…] We thought about the firmware, since our keyboards would come with a program to control them, re-map keys and stuff.
Make them entirely programmable, if possible with at least two layers
You know, that's a good idea. We don't see that often. And people would use that a lot! We could make some settings that they could set, like for a specific game or something. I'm writing that one down
Well, that was our plan. We listen to the community, what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Of course we will offer versions of it, black/blue/red switches, RGB/one color/none, 60%/fullsized etc. We thought about the firmware, since our keyboards would come with a program to control them, re-map keys and stuff.
All sounds good - but when you say 'a program', is that Windows only? What about Mac and Linux users? We are a minority, but we like it when we are not left out!
The Infinity 60% got around this by having a web interface where you could configure and download a compiled firmware file for your custom layout, but in practice, it was pretty buggy.
Well, that was our plan. We listen to the community, what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Of course we will offer versions of it, black/blue/red switches, RGB/one color/none, 60%/fullsized etc. We thought about the firmware, since our keyboards would come with a program to control them, re-map keys and stuff.
All sounds good - but when you say 'a program', is that Windows only? What about Mac and Linux users? We are a minority, but we like it when we are not left out!
The Infinity 60% got around this by having a web interface where you could configure and download a compiled firmware file for your custom layout, but in practice, it was pretty buggy.
Don't worry, you won't be left out it will work on Mac, Windows and linux. But still, if you want to use a program you like more and it supports coding, you will be able with no problem.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 19:04
by Loliplol
So, I found this template that we will use for laser cutting.
Photo:
But the only thing its missing it the spacebar. Could someone help us a little bit with that?
By the way: why are the switch cutouts surrounded by squares? Those lines had better not be cut, or the plate will be diced up.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 19:26
by Plasmodium
I don't know what the rules are on commercial usage, but have you tried the sites keyboard-layout-editor.com and builder.swillkb.com? You can edit the keyboard layout in the first one, then import the code into the second to generate a CAD file which you can download and tweak as necessary.
My two cents on layout would be that if you want to bring something new to the table (or desk ), don't just make a generic 60% or TKL layout. There are tons of custom and commercial options for them already.
For example, if you're appealing to gamers (as per OP), maybe something that puts as many keys on as small a footprint as possible - so you have all the keys for gaming, but the portability for LAN parties. Perhaps the challenge would be to fit 60% + arrow keys + a few macro/function keys into a small, clean-looking form factor. But without too many non-standard key sizes. Maybe I'm shooting for the moon here, but I'm just trying to come up with an idea with a bit of a USP, if you see what I mean.
Also, Muirium, if you're being picky, there's no spacebar!
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 19:37
by Loliplol
scottc wrote: ↑What if it's patented?!!!1111!!!one!!ONE!!!
Well, I asked my team and they said it's fine. I'm gonna try that one and see what I can make.
Anyway, while talking about the form factor, that is a blig plus for this keyboard. It will be 60% and we will keep it smallest and thinnest as possible.
Also, USB type C anyone? We can leave the normal one.
Edit: Is there a way I can contact you? Pm me
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 19:38
by kbdfr
Designing a PCB which will allow both ANSI and ISO of course is a must, by the way.
Also, USB type C anyone? We can leave the normal one.
Whoops - bit of trouble with my URLs...fixed now.
USB type C - for sure! Custom sleeved cables as well!
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 19:56
by Loliplol
Just a quick question for you smart people. What are good key caps? I know there are cheap, low quality ones that everyone hates, so do you know any companies that make them high quality? I need this because of the key sizes.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 20:06
by Plasmodium
Signature Plastics is a big player in the world of keycaps. They make a lot of the custom sets you see around here, particularly the ones with 'spherical' profiles. The only thing is that they're pretty much busy until Feb 2016.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 20:09
by Loliplol
Plasmodium wrote: ↑Signature Plastics is a big player in the world of keycaps. They make a lot of the custom sets you see around here, particularly the ones with 'spherical' profiles. The only thing is that they're pretty much busy until Feb 2016.
Thoughts about wasdkeyboards.com? They seem fine, and people say they are good.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 20:23
by scottc
No good. ABS plastic (= get shiny quickly), printed legends (=wear off quickly), very thin plastic (=not much better than crap stock keycaps) = bad news.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 20:37
by Findecanor
Loliplol wrote: ↑Cherry MX Red (great for gamers), RGB lights (with computer program to control them)
I wouldn't agree with Red being "The Gaming Switch". You can game just as well on any of Cherry's regular MX switches.
There are now many keyboards out there with linear switches (Cherry MX Red or Black), keyboards for gamers.
What is your edge? Why choose Karlo's company's keyboards over a more established, trialled and tested brand?
As to RGB: The Cherry MX with a black housing supports only 3 mm LEDs, and there are no 3 mm RGB LEDs.
The switches that Corsair uses in their RGB switches have clear housings, with SMD RGB LEDs on the bottom that shine through the housings. Corsair has had a special partnership with Cherry, the switches being exclusive to Corsair.
The switches that Razer is using for their BlackWidow Chroma were made by Kaihua - they are using a special 3mm LED that has a wider base that fits specifically in their switches. The reason why Razer went with Kaihua in the first place was because Cherry had problems meeting keyboard manufacturers' demand for Cherry MX switches.
I know that Gateron has made switches with clear housings, but so far only as a special order (Zeal PC).
Gateron does also make keycaps out of PBT and other parts that are compatible with Cherry MX.
Unfortunately, people still believe that anything other than genuine Cherry would be of lower quality when that is not necessarily the case. Gateron is quite well regarded by those who have tried them.
Personally, I do not very much like the light-bleed between keys that many backlit Cherry MX switches have.
If I had my little way, I would instead of Cherry MX (or clones of Cherry MX) use Adomax Flaretech switches - but Adomax is a peripheral brand itself, so I am unsure on how they would want to license. These are compatible with Cherry MX only for the keycaps: inside they have optical sensing (which is faster than mechanical metal-contact switches: there's an edge!) but a similar feel to Cherry MX Red would be possible. The switches also use SMD LEDs but with a light-guide, thus giving even less light-bleed than original Cherry MX. The switches would also support analogue sensing in the future, as long as the electronics and controller supports it - alas there is no USB protocol for analogue keyboards.
Loliplol wrote: ↑So, I found this template that we will use for laser cutting.
It looks as if you got it from the community. The switch holes would normally be square, but are shaped like that so that you would be able to open the Cherry MX switches for modding without desoldering them first. That feature is wanted by the community, for sure.
The stabiliser holes in that template do support both Cherry and Costar-style stabilisers.
kbdfr wrote: ↑Designing a PCB which will allow both ANSI and ISO of course is a must, by the way.
The reason for that is that you could reuse the PCB for both ANSI, ISO and other layouts. Only the plate would have to be different.. or not even that: Cherry MX switches with stabilising pins do not need a plate.
Plates provide a more solid look and feel and they protect the underlying PCB. Some keyboards (like Corsair's) let also the plate be the top of the keyboard's case.
Most stabiliser mounts are mounted to the plate, not the PCB though. You need special mounts from Cherry if you would mount them to the PCB.
If you do it like Corsair with the plate as the case top then you might want to close any holes in the top case anyway: only square switch holes and only Costar-style stabilisers.
Yes.
Type C would only be the type of plug on the device end. The protocol would still be only USB 2.0 so your cable could just as well be a USB 2.0 cable also.
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 20:46
by Loliplol
This is what I made so far.
I was thinking about the screw holes, I think they are in the way of the keycap coming down.
Where should I put them?
Loliplol wrote: ↑Cherry MX Red (great for gamers), RGB lights (with computer program to control them)
I wouldn't agree with Red being "The Gaming Switch". You can game just as well on any of Cherry's regular MX switches.
There are now many keyboards out there with linear switches (Cherry MX Red or Black), keyboards for gamers.
What is your edge? Why choose Karlo's company's keyboards over a more established, trialled and tested brand?
As to RGB: The Cherry MX with a black housing supports only 3 mm LEDs, and there are no 3 mm RGB LEDs.
The switches that Corsair uses in their RGB switches have clear housings, with SMD RGB LEDs on the bottom that shine through the housings. Corsair has had a special partnership with Cherry, the switches being exclusive to Corsair.
The switches that Razer is using for their BlackWidow Chroma were made by Kaihua - they are using a special 3mm LED that has a wider base that fits specifically in their switches. The reason why Razer went with Kaihua in the first place was because Cherry had problems meeting keyboard manufacturers' demand for Cherry MX switches.
I know that Gateron has made switches with clear housings, but so far only as a special order (Zeal PC).
Gateron does also make keycaps out of PBT and other parts that are compatible with Cherry MX.
Unfortunately, people still believe that anything other than genuine Cherry would be of lower quality when that is not necessarily the case. Gateron is quite well regarded by those who have tried them.
Personally, I do not very much like the light-bleed between keys that many backlit Cherry MX switches have.
If I had my little way, I would instead of Cherry MX (or clones of Cherry MX) use Adomax Flaretech switches - but Adomax is a peripheral brand itself, so I am unsure on how they would want to license. These are compatible with Cherry MX only for the keycaps: inside they have optical sensing (which is faster than mechanical metal-contact switches: there's an edge!) but a similar feel to Cherry MX Red would be possible. The switches also use SMD LEDs but with a light-guide, thus giving even less light-bleed than original Cherry MX. The switches would also support analogue sensing in the future, as long as the electronics and controller supports it - alas there is no USB protocol for analogue keyboards.
Loliplol wrote: ↑So, I found this template that we will use for laser cutting.
It looks as if you got it from the community. The switch holes would normally be square, but are shaped like that so that you would be able to open the Cherry MX switches for modding without desoldering them first. That feature is wanted by the community, for sure.
The stabiliser holes in that template do support both Cherry and Costar-style stabilisers.
kbdfr wrote: ↑Designing a PCB which will allow both ANSI and ISO of course is a must, by the way.
The reason for that is that you could reuse the PCB for both ANSI, ISO and other layouts. Only the plate would have to be different.. or not even that: Cherry MX switches with stabilising pins do not need a plate.
Plates provide a more solid look and feel and they protect the underlying PCB. Some keyboards (like Corsair's) let also the plate be the top of the keyboard's case.
Most stabiliser mounts are mounted to the plate, not the PCB though. You need special mounts from Cherry if you would mount them to the PCB.
If you do it like Corsair with the plate as the case top then you might want to close any holes in the top case anyway: only square switch holes and only Costar-style stabilisers.
Yes.
Type C would only be the type of plug on the device end. The protocol would still be only USB 2.0 so your cable could just as well be a USB 2.0 cable also.
Very helpful post! But, there is a twist. You mentioned that people think, if it ain't cherry it's bad. That is not right at all, and we can see that in your example with Gatreon switches. But, if I list that we used Gatreon switches, and people find out they are copies of the legendary Cherry, they will think that it's bad. I know that they aren't bad, but if it ain't cherry don't buy. And yes there arent 3mm RGB LEDs, so we thought to change the switches on the RBG one.
Talking about the PBC, we will make that somehow. Since I'm not that good with that electric stuff (making a PCB, I know other stuff) we will try to find someone. If someone is good with doing that stuff here on the forum, he is welcome
Posted: 11 Oct 2015, 21:22
by Plasmodium
Pimp my Keyboard (PMK) is just the shopfront for Signature Plastics.
I like that you're coming up with a new layout - however, I noticed that's missing the U key! My personal preference would be a little bigger than 60% (but smaller than TKL), but if you can make a fully featured keyboard smaller than 60%, go for it!
One thing to consider is that people like to swap keycaps, so really unusually sized keycaps might put people off.
Keep in mind that the case will be laser cut.
it will work on Mac, Windows and linux. But still, if you want to use a program you like more and it supports coding, you will be able with no problem.
), don't just make a generic 60% or TKL layout. There are tons of custom and commercial options for them already. 
