deskthority

I have a black Unicomp Ultra Classic that I want to put blank keycaps on. Ideally I'd like to use black caps, but the black blanks are gone from Unicomp's website, so I emailed them to ask. They say they don't have any more right-shift keys in black and I can substitute another color (gray, probably) for it, or for all the non-character keys (Shift, Tab, Backspace, Enter, Caps Lock, Ctrl, Alt) if I want.

The thing is they want to charge me $10 extra to do that ($30 rather than $20 for the set). Their position is that I'm asking them to customize, so it's a customization fee. My feeling is that I'm only having to customize because they can't fill the order I would prefer to make, namely a fully black set, so they should eat the fee. It feels wrong to have to pay an extra fee to receive a compromise.

Who's right? I can see their side, but I think I have a point too. Opinions?

They don't offer the option at the moment but you made an inquiery regardlessly so I think they're not obliged to compromise.

Sadly, they are a monopoly and can do what they want. Be glad they aren't charging you $100 for the keys.

I wouldn't buy it in these terms. If you ask for a black blank keyset and they can't provide one, their patching with another color is their fault, not your choice. BTW I wouldn't accept gray mods, their black is weird by itself, no need to heighten it : o ).

They haven't had black right shifts for months. They don't care if you lose your order; they're staring oblivion in the face and don't seem too bothered by that either. They haven't done anything innovative since I don't know when.

Since the store chooses what to offer for sale and not the customer, I'd say they are in the right to ask for the customization fee.
If they had accepted your order and then found out that the shifts are out of stock, which would make them unable to fulfil your order correctly, you would expect them to either refund of eat the extra cost. But in this case you know beforehand, so you can make an informed choice.
I hate that Unicomp has no idea what they actually have in stock (the two SSK barrel plates that Mu and I bought where non-existent according to Unicomp customer service, so we took our chance), but since they know they don't have it in stock, pulling the black blank set from sale was a correct decision.

The only item that excuses their behavior is that they do not have that product available on their website, you reached out to them if they could sell it to you. Otherwise, yes they should eat the cost, more if they could not deliver what they had shown as available.

In the end, it's their choice anyway what they offer for what price, and black is out of stock because it was popular. And they might have extra work ... maybe the black keys they still have aren't even sorted yet.

It's your choice to buy for that price or not. In my humble opinion, their prices for blank sets are quite affordable, so their price + $10 is still a good price.

Also, it's worth pointing out that it doesn't matter who's right: Unicomp have given you their terms, and since they have the monopoly it's tough shit if you disagree.

Yeah, don't buy their product if you disagree. Money talks.

scottc wrote: ↑Also, it's worth pointing out that it doesn't matter who's right: Unicomp have given you their terms, and since they have the monopoly it's tough shit if you disagree.

That's certainly true, but whether I decide to spend the $30 is going to depend at least partly on whether I feel right about the extra charge. It's one thing if it incurs costs on them, another thing if they're just taking advantage. I don't see where the extra cost is to them. It's just grabbing keys out of bins and putting them in a bag either way, and I can't see how reaching into the gray bin instead of the black bin can cost them $10 that they need to recoup. I know they don't have to care about any of that, but I do.

Parjánya says their black keys look weird anyway, and although I'd like a little more information on that, my inclination right at the moment is to just buy a $20 gray set.

I have some time to think about it though. Right now I have a keyless Model M on its way to me, and a controller and some other stuff from Phosphorglow. I'm going to try my hand at a screw mod restoration, and if I'm successful I might order another set of blanks for that, so I'll wait and maybe save on shipping by combining the orders.

I've encountered this missing black Shift issue because of people wanting the black set in my GB. What I'm doing is buying the black set with the missing cap, and a single blank right Shift cap, which they can dye. Alternatively, buy a whole set in the same colour and dye all the caps together. You'll get there in the end, and can better colour match that way.

More bother than I can be arsed with myself, though. But don't kid there are alternatives. Unicomp's the global monopoly producer of IBM mount caps. They know that and act accordingly.

Muirium wrote: ↑I've encountered this missing black Shift issue because of people wanting the black set in my GB. What I'm doing is buying the black set with the missing cap, and a single blank right Shift cap, which they can dye. Alternatively, buy a whole set in the same colour and dye all the caps together. You'll get there in the end, and can better colour match that way.

More bother than I can be arsed with myself, though. But don't kid there are alternatives. Unicomp's the global monopoly producer of IBM mount caps. They know that and act accordingly.

Ha, I never considered dyeing a set. Would you start with the gray or the white? I assume the gray.

I haven't tried it. Your guess is as good as mine. If you really want uniform black all round, I'd start with blanks of the same colour. White might be easier, but it might not! Needs experiment.

Anyone here dyed Unicomp caps before?

dwasifar wrote: ↑[…] I don't see where the extra cost is to them. It's just grabbing keys out of bins and putting them in a bag either way, and I can't see how reaching into the gray bin instead of the black bin can cost them $10 that they need to recoup. […]

You seem to have a weird conception of how a business works
They do not "reach into the gray bin instead of the black bin", but have a (in your eyes incomplete) set which they have to add an extra key to (perhaps grey caps are even in another room). That's a special order, and they rightly charge for that.

To be fair though, Unicomp's got a pretty weird concept of how to run a business, too. They're headed into oblivion, and seem to welcome the end as it nears them. Which is their choice, but a real pain in the arse for us IBMers.

kbdfr wrote: ↑

dwasifar wrote: ↑[…] I don't see where the extra cost is to them. It's just grabbing keys out of bins and putting them in a bag either way, and I can't see how reaching into the gray bin instead of the black bin can cost them $10 that they need to recoup. […]

You seem to have a weird conception of how a business works
They do not "reach into the gray bin instead of the black bin", but have a (in your eyes incomplete) set which they have to add an extra key to (perhaps grey caps are even in another room). That's a special order, and they rightly charge for that.

In my eyes incomplete? The set is missing a shift key. In whose eyes is that not incomplete?

I didn't consider the possibility that gray caps are in another room. I want that job. I could walk from room to room at $10 a pop for one morning a week and earn thousands.

As far as how packaging of products in a small business works, I did my time working in factories when I was a kid. If those sets are not assembled by people picking keys from bins and dropping them in a bag, I'll eat a spacebar.

dwasifar wrote: ↑In my eyes incomplete? The set is missing a shift key. In whose eyes is that not incomplete?

Well technically, since they don't offer it for sale on their store, it's not even a product or a "set". You can't have expectations of completeness.
It's like contacting the Audi factory and asking for a new Audi 80. Sure, they might have most of the parts lying around somewhere, but you can't complain about the ones they don't have, and expect them to substitute them for free.

(Forgive the crude example, but it's the best my sleepy brain can accomplish now... )

Hear, hear! chzel, (or is it here, here!)

This seems like much ado about nothing, OP said "My feeling is that I'm only having to customize because they can't fill the order I would prefer to make, namely a fully black set, so they should eat the fee."

I'm emphasizing the my, I and they because it seems like OP wants something for nothing. You don't get to customize meals and not expect to pay for extra ingredients. This speaks to the entitlement thing I was going on about in the granite thread. Nothing is free and OP knows that, but THEY should pay, so he can have his cake and eat it too.

Dyeing PBT caps black is very easy. It completely obscures the original legend.
And the kitchen smell is not bad, nothing like frying fish or boiling cabbage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIXrF34Bz0

SL89 wrote: ↑Hear, hear! chzel, (or is it here, here!)

This seems like much ado about nothing, OP said "My feeling is that I'm only having to customize because they can't fill the order I would prefer to make, namely a fully black set, so they should eat the fee."

I'm emphasizing the my, I and they because it seems like OP wants something for nothing. You don't get to customize meals and not expect to pay for extra ingredients.

Well, actually, you do. Most restaurants allow substitutions of similar items at no charge. It's a common enough thing that restaurants that don't do it usually have to specify "no substitutions" on the menu.

This speaks to the entitlement thing I was going on about in the granite thread. Nothing is free and OP knows that, but THEY should pay, so he can have his cake and eat it too.

I'm not asking them to "pay." I asked them not to charge extra for something that doesn't cost them extra. It's not like I asked for a full set of keys, and then some more keys on top of it.

Here's a counterexample. A set of tires is $400, your choice of whitewalls or blackwalls. You want whitewalls, but the shop only has three in your size. They offer to give you a blackwall for the fourth tire, but there's a $200 charge for the substitution. The price for the set of three whitewalls and one blackwall is now $600, even though a set of four would customarily only be $400.

Are you really saying you would not question why you should pay $200 extra to drive around with a mismatched set of tires?

Oh, and you were right the first time: it's "hear, hear."

Order a black set plus the right shift in another color, and then order enough other modifiers in that same color to complete the board.



Or, wait for another blank black complete set to show up on ebay (there has been a few since Unicomp ran out of black right shifts).

Or, I think Unicomps MOQ is 5000, for them to get a new batch of keys made up. Group buy?

0100010 wrote: ↑Order a black set plus the right shift in another color, and then order enough other modifiers in that same color to complete the board.



Or, wait for another blank black complete set to show up on ebay (there has been a few since Unicomp ran out of black right shifts).

Or, I think Unicomps MOQ is 5000, for them to get a new batch of keys made up. Group buy?

That pic looks awesome.

I'd be in on that group buy for sure. In for two at least.

I didn't think of ebay. Another good idea, thanks.