deskthority

I've been wondering.

You're all such enormous dorks. Why is that?

Nah, but seriously: Why are you into keyboards?
Not "How did you get into keyboards", but what is it about them that you find so fascinating? What kind of satisfaction is it that you get from it?

Why keyboards and not, say, coffee brewing equipment? Unless you actually are into coffee brewing equipment, then make up your own counterfactual.

Use em every day. It's a part of my job, my recreation, and thus : My life.

Why not make it the best it can be?
At that point it gets like any other hobby and now I'm deep into it.

I haven't thought this through myself, but there certainly are some predisposing factors for me ...

• I'm a physicist, so I like technical shit
• I have a healthy nostalgia/archaeology gene (which at least in part explains the "vintage" part of "vintage keyboards"
• There is the "tinkering aspect". It's creative.
• Repairing old stuff is nice. Old keyboards are not only old, but actually good as well.
• There is something satisfying about a technical hobby that has a... "sensory" aspect to it. Paying close attention to the feeling of a switch, its impact on the typing experience. Its strangely uplifting.

I'll stop now, before I embarrass my future self too badly.

I'm guilty of having too many hobbies but I originally considered having a nice keyboard to be a work aid. In my old job I wrote a lot for a website and a pleasurable typing experience really made a difference. I found that a good typists keyboard to not be so good for competitive FPS (when ever I got the chance) so I got another keyboard. So I have seen having a few nice, specialised keyboards as a utility for a while now.

However, this has recently changed. My old job I mentioned above was all based around vintage drums. I found it very fun to date and document the old kits. Fascinating to link their construction to the company's strategy at the time, greater economic factors, such as World War II or trade embargos, etc.. Since leaving this job, that interest in pulling apart artefacts of our recent past, experimenting with them, documenting them in someway has miraculously transferred to keyboards. I still play drums but I was swimming in vintage stuff, constantly facing a new mystery to solve each day. I guess keyboards fill that gap in the little free time I currently have. They may even go back to just being a utility to me but after finding DT, it feels like I'm only just getting started.

Also an enormous dork

Speaking of drums, some of the first pieces of technology I felt passionate about (from about age 10 I guess) were electrical (bass) guitars. That hobby has the same combination of technical, historical, creative and a strong "sensory" component.

But, in contrast, I spend quite a bit of time using my phone (as people do ... ), but I'm not interested in it. I don't remember the model name or the OS version, and I don't really care. Somehow phones do not spark joy (spoken like Marie Kondo) the way keyboards and musical instruments do for me.

So in that sense it is not, for me, just about improving the tools I use on a day-to-day basis. Some of the tools I clearly don't give a rat's ass about, as long as they more or less get the job done.

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

18 Mar 2021, 21:13

• I'm a physicist, so I like technical shit
• I have a healthy nostalgia/archaeology gene (which at least in part explains the "vintage" part of "vintage keyboards"
• There is the "tinkering aspect". It's creative.
• Repairing old stuff is nice. Old keyboards are not only old, but actually good as well.
• There is something satisfying about a technical hobby that has a... "sensory" aspect to it. Paying close attention to the feeling of a switch, its impact on the typing experience. Its strangely uplifting.

This hits the nail on the head for me honestly. I love tinkering and working with my hands on something that I can put to good use is really enjoyable. Additionally I really like finding weird switches that operate using novel mechanisms. Seeing how other people solved the problems of switch design is really cool and there's a ton of little nuances in the design of switches, especially ones that got revisions later as you get insight into their design process and their design goals by comparing the different generations. Whether or not they are actually good is not important to me since I've already figured out what existing vintage switches I like, I'm not trying to find better switches I'm trying to find new ones.

As a result of this I have a lot of "mechanically interesting junk" in my collection but it was fun to curate all that junk so who cares.

I keep telling myself that my hobby is repairing keyboards, not collecting them.

I wanted a hobby where I could use my hands and thought, "Why not do one that would actually benefit me?" I sit behind a computer screen 12 hours a day and I already ...

* Have the fastest Internet access available in my area, allegedly Gigabit.
* Have three monitors and I can't fit more onto my desk. (I also use the screen on my laptop and an iPad.)
* Have a decent ergo chair, a SteelCase Leap, and the best chair I've tried, a Herman Miller Embody, is essentially in the beam spring price range.
* Have the best modern trackball for me, an X-Keys L-Trac. I actually have two.

I also don't see too much of a point in customizing my home computer. The only upgrade I've made in four-ish years was to replace my 3.25" SSDs with NVMe-based SSDs. My old drives were pushing 6 years old. Arguably, I should replace my 6+ year old PSU and maybe my 5-ish year old case fans, but they work and aren't maddeningly loud. My case is a 24" tall x 9" wide x 22" deep (that's 5 fruit bats x 10 giraffes x 1 wombat in Metric) 10+ year old block of steel. No need to replace it.

So, the cheapest thing to play with that would make my life better would be keyboards. I also think that some of the keycaps and keyboards are really pretty and can be appreciated on just that level.

I do have another hobby or two, but they were getting a little boring, so I decided to step away from them for a bit.

I think I may be more of an amateur keyboard scholar now than a collector, builder or even user. I tend to become deeply nerdy and creative in various computing technologies now and then, and input devices and ergonomics is one such broad topic that I nerd out in. I also briefly worked in HMI tech research a long time ago, which had sparked something in me.

I started out eleven years ago because I wanted to build a custom keyboard — and building a mechanical custom keyboard turned out to be the best way to do it. I started collecting vintage keyboards because it was the best way to get good mechanical keyboards back then. I don't collect anodised aluminium customs keyboards made with the latest Chinese MX clones .. but I want to keep up with the times.

I'm also still active in the keyboard community because I think that you should pay forward the help and support that you got when you yourself was a noob. If you have some knowledge and someone could use it, you should share it.

hellothere wrote: ↑

18 Mar 2021, 23:50

and the best chair I've tried, a Herman Miller Embody, is essentially in the beam spring price range.

Worth every penny though... I got my Embody as a birfday gift from my wife. She found it as a refurb online for like 40% of the list price. Aside from a couple of scratches in the powder coat on the base it was like new! Essential for 100% WFH.

I have a natural interest in technical stuff and tinkering and so on. I also have a healthy nostalgia obsession. Be it old backpacks, books, furniture, cloth (just to an extend), but especially technology. Partly also because it's better for the environment than always buying new stuff. I also love the design philosophy and general visual aspects of old hardware from the early computing era.

As someone who played the piano for around 16 years of my life, I like good feeling buttons/keys at my fingertips. I spend a decent amount of time in front of my computer, so when I discovered Chyros' videos on YT, it instantly clicked with me.

Lastly the sound aspect. There's something oddly satisfying about the sound of mechanical keyboards imo.

Because I like them. Or more philosophically, because I can like them.

Polecat wrote: ↑

19 Mar 2021, 04:45

Because I like them. Or more philosophically, because I can like them.

Well, you know what Kierkegaard said,

But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates itself to its own self, via keyboards.

-- Søren Kierkeyboaard

zrrion wrote: ↑

18 Mar 2021, 23:13

Additionally I really like finding weird switches that operate using novel mechanisms. Seeing how other people solved the problems of switch design is really cool and there's a ton of little nuances in the design of switches, especially ones that got revisions later as you get insight into their design process and their design goals by comparing the different generations.

This made me think of something which is quite crucial for me, namely the simplicity.
With keyboards, the mechanisms involved are complex enough to be interesting, yet simple enough to be elegant. Simple enough that I can understand and appreciate them.

Contrary to the most deskthority users, I do not collect vintage keyboards. I own 4 keyboards and I should probably dump one or two of them as little useful.

I'm into keyboards because I use them daily and I think that ergonomics of most keyboards sucks. I wanted to built something better than kinesis advantage. An internet search brought me to deskthority and geekhack.

Good question, isn't it?

Looking back at my very first post, I too came here with specific demands in mind, rather than an ethos. I was, incidentally, largely right about what I wanted from the start; or you could just as well say inflexible! Buckling spring did indeed once come in tenkeyless, and even 60% if you were really lucky. Mission accomplished! Bluetooth was tricky, but I got to that. Thanks to DT, I never did get around to buying a Ducky or a Filco… (Though I've won both in contests over the years here.)

But what is it about keyboards, really?

What you guys have been saying is pretty much the heart of it. They're a meeting place of several vital things. They're inherently tactile, sensory, touchable. They're mostly quite affordable, but some knowledge, persistence and luck is required to nab the really good stuff. They come in really quite an astonishing range of attributes, from damped silence to beamsprings with electric jackhammers. Whole different geological ages of technology have gone by, and despite it all, their vintage keyboards still work magnificently! Better, in fact, than so much has come since. And, to clinch the deal: we all still use them like crazy.

Actually, it's the community, too. You can just keep on chatting about keyboards forever if you want to. Believe me.

Strange that so simple a problem—entering text—has such a wide and deep solution space. And that it's possible for us all to have such varying opinions about it. No one ever knows the whole field. Even the past is still unfolding.

Muirium wrote: ↑

19 Mar 2021, 09:51

[...] No one ever knows the whole field. Even the past is still unfolding.

I think this one of the things I particularly appreciate about vintage keyboards. Boards are unearthed and, provided they make it to the likes of us, rather than the scrap heap, we investigate, dismantle, document. A greater knowledge base is built around the hobby, thinking not just of the DT wiki, but the threads upon threads of information on here. We're not just 'getting cool keyboards for ourselves', the knowledge feeds back into the community.

Every single one of my "coolest keyboards" needed the community, or they'd never work with my computers or even get here in the first place. My Kishsaver and my Beamspring both needed Xwhatsit and Pandrew to restore them from antiquity; and never would have entered my hands if not for Tinnie and Cindy respectively. All on Deskthority. My HHKB was a proxy from 002 years before they were easily had over this end of the Earth, and its Bluetooth controller is handmade, designed and programmed by Hasu. All of this forum, as well.

If it weren't for DT, my keyboard choice would suuuck!

As a lawyer and self-professed geek, I'm heavily into all sort of words, both spoken and written … I like books and poetry, cryptography¹ and good typography, LaTeX and fonts and calligraphy and vintage printing and fountain pens. Why should I not also like good keyboards?

¹ Secret words, so to speak

I haven't thought about it much before, except that I generally have an interest in older technology, such as fountain pens, letterpress printing and vintage mechanical keyboards. I dream of owning a vintage Heidelberg letterpress machine, but probably never will.

I only realized now, when reading ingmar's post, that language and words is actually the common theme. I also use LaTeX frequently and I'm interested in typography and generally in linguistics. In fact linguistics is what I set out to study, but I ended up being a computer geek.

And I also use a small collection of coffee brewing equipment.

It's not an easy question. I have been into computers in general for a very long time. I love all kinds of hardare, old and new.

But most hardware doesn't have a very long useful life. You can collect vintage monitors or CPU's, but they don't have much use beyond being a valuable antique.

Keyboards are kind of the exception there. A good quality 20-yeard-old mechanical keyboard can still be used today. I guess that's part of the charm.

They also feel good.

I like to use personalised computer peripherals. I have a ducky that required me to do a key combo every power on to set the backlight and it annoyed me. i have a form of ocd and i find it unpleasant to repeat myself. So i decided to replace the controller and play with macros to work around bugs in the software i use. later on after running into problems with jamming stabs i decided to go ortholinear and i have designed and built a few. my dad doesn't like that i broke the ducky but i enjoyed myself so that's what life is all about.

I like to play with electronics and find it helps to keep my mind active. use it or lose it as they say.

Keyboards are something I use everyday, yet I considered them disposable and unimportant.
Then I randomly stumbled upon Chyros' channel and could not believe how obsessively hard someone can be into kbs.
The idea of using old kbs appealed to me, because they were supposedly better-feeling and also because I like being able to use something old if it's still functional.
And because I have a tendency to throw myself fully into hobbies and go as deep as I can as quickly as I can before I lose interest, well...that happened with kbs and now I have a room filled with them.
I appreciate that there is a lot to learn about different switch types, manufacturing materials, brands etc., but it's not THAT deep and the knowledge doesn't have to go into super technical territory to be understood.
Also hunting for deals on kbs is fun.

Tha_Pig wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 08:23

Keyboards are kind of the exception there. A good quality 20-yeard-old mechanical keyboard can still be used today. I guess that's part of the charm.

A good 40 year old keyboard can still be used today! They're harder to find, but they're tanks!

At 20 years old, a keyboard is only just getting started on its vintage life. The next decades get better. It's… the way of the world.

Muirium wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 14:59

Tha_Pig wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 08:23

Keyboards are kind of the exception there. A good quality 20-yeard-old mechanical keyboard can still be used today. I guess that's part of the charm.

A good 40 year old keyboard can still be used today! They're harder to find, but they're tanks!

At 20 years old, a keyboard is only just getting started on its vintage life. The next decades get better. It's… the way of the world.

I worry that the truth value of that statement is not time translation invariant (in physics parlance). Boards that are 20 years old are more or less from the Brown Age of Keyboards by now (known as such due to being dominated by shit).

I'm a fan of the marriage of form and function and every way it presents itself via daily utility. A keyboard is a tool. It has one use. It makes a letter appear on a screen. That's it. Yet look at the variety of ways of doing so. Right now I'm typing on a BOX Jade equipped 60%. For work I use a Topre-clone ABKO TKL. If I have to type a lot I'm probably using my New Model M. These things all accomplish the same task and yet the parameters of their function define my entire experience with the computer.

Plus with the BOX Jades if you time it right it sounds like a Top Fuel dragster at idle. *brrrappapa*brrapr*brraprpapraprap*

My first experience working with computers was in 1979 or 1980, typing on the keyboard of a paper teletype-style terminal attached to a mainframe via 300 baud acoustically coupled modem.

Followed by learning to type at the local community college on an IBM Selectric. I work better and more efficiently at keyboards that provide a lot of feedback (tactile, audio, etc).

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 15:06

Muirium wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 14:59

Tha_Pig wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 08:23

Keyboards are kind of the exception there. A good quality 20-yeard-old mechanical keyboard can still be used today. I guess that's part of the charm.

A good 40 year old keyboard can still be used today! They're harder to find, but they're tanks!

At 20 years old, a keyboard is only just getting started on its vintage life. The next decades get better. It's… the way of the world.

I worry that the truth value of that statement is not time translation invariant (in physics parlance). Boards that are 20 years old are more or less from the Brown Age of Keyboards by now (known as such due to being dominated by shit).

Sorry, I keep forgetting we are not in the 90s anymore.
Should have said 40 year old keyboard in the first place.

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 15:06

I worry that the truth value of that statement is not time translation invariant (in physics parlance). Boards that are 20 years old are more or less from the Brown Age of Keyboards by now (known as such due to being dominated by shit).

True. They don't make 'em like that no more. The vintage boards I'm on about are artefacts of a past age. Mass produced, but with more expense and more care than today. They're from a time before a community like ours could exist. Only computer manufacturers themselves made any of those design choices.

Just think how complex it'll be in 20…40 years time for those poor bastards trying to collect all the madness we're up to now! So complex! And we think Alps are a vortex!

Muirium wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2021, 11:59

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 15:06

I worry that the truth value of that statement is not time translation invariant (in physics parlance). Boards that are 20 years old are more or less from the Brown Age of Keyboards by now (known as such due to being dominated by shit).

True. They don't make 'em like that no more. The vintage boards I'm on about are artefacts of a past age. Mass produced, but with more expense and more care than today. They're from a time before a community like ours could exist. Only computer manufacturers themselves made any of those design choices.

Just think how complex it'll be in 20…40 years time for those poor bastards trying to collect all the madness we're up to now! So complex! And we think Alps are a vortex!

I wonder if you could say, as a rule of thumb that's as accurate as most rules of thumb, that pre-1995 keyboards or keyswitches are what you really want to look for if you're specifically looking for clicky or tactile. I think I can agree with Chyros that modern linear keyboards, like my Hall-effect SteelSeries Apex Pro, is better than any other linears ... with me qualifying it with, "I wish the springs were a bit heavier." Yes, I do like my yellow Alps keyboard, too .

The exceptions I can think of are SMK 2nd Generation, as the two I've sold had Windows 95 keys, so they were made up until at least 1995, IBM Model Ms, and possibly Topre. According to the Wiki, SKCM/SKBM Alps switches were around until about 1996.

hellothere wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2021, 23:17

Muirium wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2021, 11:59

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

20 Mar 2021, 15:06

I worry that the truth value of that statement is not time translation invariant (in physics parlance). Boards that are 20 years old are more or less from the Brown Age of Keyboards by now (known as such due to being dominated by shit).

True. They don't make 'em like that no more. The vintage boards I'm on about are artefacts of a past age. Mass produced, but with more expense and more care than today. They're from a time before a community like ours could exist. Only computer manufacturers themselves made any of those design choices.

Just think how complex it'll be in 20…40 years time for those poor bastards trying to collect all the madness we're up to now! So complex! And we think Alps are a vortex!

I wonder if you could say, as a rule of thumb that's as accurate as most rules of thumb, that pre-1995 keyboards or keyswitches are what you really want to look for if you're specifically looking for clicky or tactile. I think I can agree with Chyros that modern linear keyboards, like my Hall-effect SteelSeries Apex Pro, is better than any other linears ... with me qualifying it with, "I wish the springs were a bit heavier." Yes, I do like my yellow Alps keyboard, too .

The exceptions I can think of are SMK 2nd Generation, as the two I've sold had Windows 95 keys, so they were made up until at least 1995, IBM Model Ms, and possibly Topre. According to the Wiki, SKCM/SKBM Alps switches were around until about 1996.

Based on your being in Arizona, I think you sold one of these Windows Keys SMK 2nd Gen boards this very morning! (I was watching and almost bought it - love those switches)