deskthority

I am considering getting a Niz as a portable bluetooth keyboard which I can also use as a daily driver. Would you recommend getting the 35g version or the 45g?

From what I have been able to find through reviews and reddit, the 35 gram version is supposed to be like "typing on clouds", but doesn't have strong tactility - linear like even, while the 45g version is supposed to be more tactile but softer than the regular Topre 45 gram domes.

As far as my current preferences, I tend to like more the sharper tactility of clicky type switches such as Monterey switch and especially the one in buckling springs (both membrane and capacitive), but recently I have found myself using more a linear board (linearized cream damped alps) and I quite like the relaxed typing style. Not sure about the weighting but I would probably put it on par with gateron reds or at most yellows.

Do you have some experience with "regular" (actual) Topre to go by?

Don't know about how Niz domes compare, but at least regular Topre 35g feels mushy to me. 45g is better in that regard.

A nice write up by Gokart here:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=25640

Includes the most delightful force diagrams I have ever seen!

I’m a Topre daily driver, have been for many years. Never tried Niz / “Nopre” though. Gokart describes Topre very well, leading me to trust his comparison.

Bjerrk wrote: ↑

28 Jan 2022, 07:18

Do you have some experience with "regular" (actual) Topre to go by?

I don't have any experience with Topre or any other electro-capacitive. As for your typical cheap membrane keyboards I don't really like the feeling, especially the need to bottom out as I used to type quite heavily which was tiring.

ollir wrote: ↑

28 Jan 2022, 09:07

Don't know about how Niz domes compare, but at least regular Topre 35g feels mushy to me. 45g is better in that regard.

Do you mean mushiness in the bottom out? If so how would that change from different domes (look at my username ). But if it is similar for the Niz I would rather go for the less mushy ones. In your experience do the 45g Topre allow a relaxed typing style?

Muirium wrote: ↑

28 Jan 2022, 09:12

A nice write up by Gokart here:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=25640

Includes the most delightful force diagrams I have ever seen!

I’m a Topre daily driver, have been for many years. Never tried Niz / “Nopre” though. Gokart describes Topre very well, leading me to trust his comparison.

Many thanks for the Gokart post. I needed a good comparison and that is the first plot of a force curve for Niz I've seen. Topre of any kind is too expensive for me though (uhh.. Type-S Hybrid £299 vs the equivalent Niz 169)

Thanks for the kind words, Muir!

My conclusion was, if you're after Topre key feel, buy Topre. Just because Niz largely shares the switch design, they feel pretty different. I would say you likely wouldn't be disappointed with a Niz board as they're built well and tick a lot of boxes.
As already mentioned, the 35 g is barely tactile; however, it is lovely to type on. Topre's gradual, rounded tactility is unique to Topre (though HHKB tactility is more unique again!). Unless you've had the pleasure of a Topre, I'd say don't get too distracted by purist like myself. You're after tactility? The 35 g Nopre likely won't do it for you. I've heard the 55 g Niz is offers very satisfying tactility; finding one in the U.K. is another matter...

However, if you do decide to go down the Topre rabbit hole ...the HHKB offers the purest and most supreme Topre experience! Top-tier key feel. They can be found discounted on eBay if you're lucky: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393777368505 ... SwlIdhGkAr. There's often good second hand deals on DT and eBay too.

Artfully hidden battery bulge.

Thanks for the info. I am tempted to "abuse" the amazon return policy too, so I can try them. Your post helped at least imagining what it is probably like to type on each. Unfortunately keyboardcompany has a good return policy but I would need to pay postage, so I can't actually compare the 35 and 45 grams versions of Niz.

I also found a "brand new" hhkb hybrid type-s on ebay which would be exactly what I am looking for (bluetooth + wired quiet keyboard) and with a coupon it would be around 220 pounds. Still quite expensive but I haven't seen anything of this price for Topre (bluetooth at least).

With the Niz I have found mentions of problematic bluetooth connections, and the AA battery solution of the HHKB does seem like a cleverer and more reliable implementation, although some may find it ugly... The only potential problem I would see for the HHKB would be the weird default arrow arrangement. What do you think of the weird key placements? (Aside from control, which I actually like there)

Some would be me. And yes, you’re right, because mine is Bluetooth but looks like this:



Love love love my little HHKB. Reigning champ of all my boards. Precisely because of the killer combo of size, connectivity, Topre feel and HHKB layout. This is the standard I measure all others against. Few come close!

The layout, especially that function layer, is your test. Some love it (hi!) but many fail. I suggest practicing it for a few days with one of your keyboards and whatever remapping software / hardware you have to hand. I learned HHKB layout back on my Model F XT with a Soarer converter. Glad I did. I was like a fish back into water when I got my hands on the real deal. No learning curve. Pure oneness.

I got a Niz Plum x108 EC-USB 35g not too long ago. It is definitely a rubber dome keyboard, but still a damn good one. I used the extra springs it came with to increase the weight from 35g to 45g and I really don't feel a noticeable difference, especially when I type fast. I would say I prefer the 45g but not by much since the difference feels so slight. I could manage with just 35g and wouldn't really care.

I REALLY wish I could try something more in the 55g range. I was waiting for the Atom 68 USB w/ rgb to come back in stock, but it is still only 45g. I am pretty fascinated by alt layouts like Colemak, Dvorak, etc. And I've been dying to try HHKB but I just can't bring myself to spend so much on a new one, especially with what some people say about Niz vs Topre. The 68 comes close to a similar layout and I was going to remap it to be more like HHKB. It would be cool to see if the layout also makes a difference and how it affects the typing, i.e. efficiency, comfort, etc.

keyboardnoob wrote: ↑

29 Jan 2022, 00:51

The only potential problem I would see for the HHKB would be the weird default arrow arrangement. What do you think of the weird key placements? (Aside from control, which I actually like there)

I thought this when I first got mine. Before I even tried to use the default layout I had order a HASU controller to remap it - move the arrows around, etc.. However, having now used the stock layout, I have realised that the HHKB arrow layout is perfect, very intuitive. The only thing I ended up remapping was switching Super and Alt around. Control's positioning is excellent too. Not great for gaming for me but excellent for everything else.

Go-Kart wrote: ↑

30 Jan 2022, 16:01

keyboardnoob wrote: ↑

29 Jan 2022, 00:51

The only potential problem I would see for the HHKB would be the weird default arrow arrangement. What do you think of the weird key placements? (Aside from control, which I actually like there)

I thought this when I first got mine. Before I even tried to use the default layout I had order a HASU controller to remap it - move the arrows around, etc.. However, having now used the stock layout, I have realised that the HHKB arrow layout is perfect, very intuitive. The only thing I ended up remapping was switching Super and Alt around. Control's positioning is excellent too. Not great for gaming for me but excellent for everything else.

Based on the very detailed review/comparison and everyone's comments, along with my concerns on bt (epomaker has quite a few products with less reliable connectivity) for the niz and more robust battery solution I ordered a hybrid type-s from ebay at 210 pounds new, so not VERY far off of my original estimate of 169 for the niz, although I quite like their 82 version layout. I hope I like it as much as everyone here and it does the job. Will post an update, even though I got from which Niz to get to whether to jump the gun on the HHKB.

From what I have found, the latest hybrid line including the type-s should be programmable with their software without any custom boards like Hasu, but hopefully I won't need it.

Sorry to have done this to you but someone on here did a similar thing to me once upon a time My HHKB is still my favourite key feel out of any of my boards.

And if you don't ending up falling in love, I have a friend who'd take that HHKB off your hands. So, if it comes to it, PM me.

Go-Kart wrote: ↑

30 Jan 2022, 19:05

Sorry to have done this to you but someone on here did a similar thing to me once upon a time

Mwahahaha!

I will warn to temper your expectations on first arrival. Topre isn’t fireworks. Your face is not going to melt when you open the box. Give it a good long typing session. Go “hmm, y’know maybe I’ll sell it to that Gokart fella after all, I mean after what I paid for this thing.” Then try another keyboard and discover you have been silently RUINED on them all for life. That’s how you know you’ve arrived. Welcome to Topre.

Muirium wrote: ↑

30 Jan 2022, 19:53

Go-Kart wrote: ↑

30 Jan 2022, 19:05

Sorry to have done this to you but someone on here did a similar thing to me once upon a time

Mwahahaha!

I will warn to temper your expectations on first arrival. Topre isn’t fireworks. Your face is not going to melt when you open the box. Give it a good long typing session. Go “hmm, y’know maybe I’ll sell it to that Gokart fella after all, I mean after what I paid for this thing.” Then try another keyboard and discover you have been silently RUINED on them all for life. That’s how you know you’ve arrived. Welcome to Topre.

This is what happened to me. Got a HHKB on a Monday. I liked it but it didn't knock my socks off. Used it once or twice more that week and decided to return it, even though I thought it was "pleasant", I wasn't satisfied not being blown away. However, I found myself missing the key feel pretty much straight away, how it allowed me to type, etc.. I think I lasted a week before I decided to buy another...

I feel the same way. I recently sold a Realforce RGB and an older Realforce 103UW and regretted it. I bought another RGB and a 45g Niz keyboard, and I was very pleasantly surprised at how much I liked the Niz. It's a little noisier than a factory silenced Topre (I've owned a couple), but the stabilizers are dead silent, and far superior to the RGB's. They're essentially Costar stabs, greased at the factory, but they're slightly smaller and work fine with Cherry profile keycaps. The Niz 45g domes are very slightly softer than 45g Topre domes, but it still has a great "thock" sound and tactility. I bought the black X108EC, which has absolutely hideous black and brown keycaps with electric blue legends. It would've looked much better if they had used grey instead of brown for the main keycap color. I replaced them with some PMK SA Industrial keycaps, and I think the Niz is going to be my daily driver in the office. I have a Realforce Mac edition at home that's factory silenced. I need to take it apart and grease its rattly space bar sometime soon.

For anyone else eyeing up Topre, HHKB Pro 2 Black, new, reduced down to £125:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HHKP-Pro-2-P ... 635-2958-0

I've dealt with this company previously, good stuff.

Someone kindly buy that so I don't, please! I'm always tempted by the black one, as I've even extra caps.

(I'd have to add a Hasu Bluetooth controller to the price, you see. I'm mad for mine.)

Sorry Mu, but I will have to add where I ordered mine too .

Didn't want to initially until I verified that everything is ok, even though the seller seems to have good rating and responses. I should be getting mine tomorrow or Thursday so I will update on this.

The listing is at £250 for HHKB Hybrid Type-S (White w/ printed keycaps) but they allow offers and they accepted mine at 210 if that helps. Don't know whether they would go lower than that, and didn't try since the Amazon price was 299.

At the time of this post they have 9 out of 10 left.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304257490556

Alright, just so you cruel buggers know what I’m resisting against. I’ve got the following spares:

• One nice full white set of genuine HHKB caps in white, with black dyesub legends
• A selection of PBT Matteo Topre spacebars, in white and black HHKB / Realforce colour ways (already using 2 white ones) and a blue one and a red one.
• The other half of that official PFU Control / Escape set: blank red Control and blank blue Escape.
• And a stash of Hypersphere’s damping rings, easily enough for an HHKB. Maybe two. They are roll your own Type-S.
• Even got a spare battery for a Hasu Bluetooth controller. But not the controller itself. Those are quite pricey, but he does still seem to make them.
• Oh, and yeah, these. I should sell them really. Been stored instead of used.

These guys murmur Go Get it Already. My wallet, meanwhile, even at that tempting price…

They have 3 of the Pro 2s available at that price, you might just have to buy all 3 to use up your spares Mu.
F the wallet

As much as I'd encourage more irresponsible HHKB purchases, I've not seen a white set on black chassis that I liked. I can imagine black caps on white chassis though ...tasty!

Update on the HHKB purchase...
Arrived this morning and fits what I was looking for. It very small (first 60% I have actually seen in person, much less own). The only keyboards I have typed on roughly this size is an old apple bluetooth keyboard, and my K380, both slightly non-standard in layout size.

Bluetooth:
Had some trouble connecting successfully both to my ipad and my laptop, running Linux, as the ipad didn't even recognise it. I switched the HHKB into Mac mode and switched alt and super key to have it as in standard windows keyboards (not primary mac user), and for now everything is solid.

Key-feel:
I really like it. As Mu and Go-Kart warned me, it didn't blow my mind or anything, but overall it is great. Light enough for me to type lightly, noticeably tactile but not too much, and to calm a concern of mine, the bottom out is softer than the keyboards I have tried previously, softer but not mushy at all.

As for the layout it is too soon to tell, but it doesn't seem that big of an issue. The arrows, although not suitable for gaming are not that alien, the backspace though....

As for the sound, it sounds muted and somewhat thocky as every video on youtube shows but the spacebar and stabilisers are very quiet if you don't smash them. Just mentioning the last fact because I have seen some typing demonstrations that had me worried.

The affair begins!

Just yesterday, we were talking about long term HHKB love over on this thread. They're one of those boards that'll stick with you forever, if you let it.

Thanks for the detailed pics of your Bluetooth Type-S. Seeing the bump from below really puts it in perspective. Nothing for you to worry about, but I'm so used to my square slab HHKB it'll really bug me! You're nudging me ever closer to picking up a black Pro 2 and Bluetoothing it again myself.

Go-Kart wrote: ↑

01 Feb 2022, 22:18

I've not seen a white set on black chassis that I liked.

Oh yeah?



I much prefer a darker chassis than the other way around. Granite's quite pale so the contrast on the (Topre made) Novatouch is extreme, yet I like the look a lot. I've not seen a black HHKB with white caps in person yet, but I imagine it's quite similar.

Actually, my very first HHKB experience was proxying a black one (for DanielT or someone in Romania at any rate) back before I even got my own. I liked the black model a lot. Caps were quite unreadable, however! What made me get the white one, mind, was mine had to be Type-S. This was before anyone had figured out how to make aftermarket damper rings.



Besides, I could always do this:

Hmm, looks alright, but doesn't come close to the unquestionable unquestionableness of beige

I hear you. Mind, the HHKB is pretty damn light for beige. A whiter shade of pale? Here it is with my Realforce:



And here's my Realforce looking pale against my true vintage beige SSK.



As you can see, I've got my fair share of white boards. I mean, I do love dyesubs! But the dark side is calling me…



The spells you can cast on that thing!

I sold my HHKB a while back because it just didn't get any use between my RF 55g and Model F (and later F77), but I've been thinking of getting one again and the past few posts haven't helped one bit...

Come play with us, Danny, forever and ever and ever.



I've just written to Hasu to ask about another controller, and whether he's still got those Alps64 PCBs of his. I've spare parts in the Alps drawer as well.

keyboardnoob wrote: ↑

02 Feb 2022, 11:25

As for the layout it is too soon to tell, but it doesn't seem that big of an issue. The arrows, although not suitable for gaming are not that alien, the backspace though....

If you keep using it, I think you’ll appreciate the backspace position. It’s a row nearer to your hands after all, making it easier to hit. On as many of my other boards that allow it, I reprogram the big backslash key to backspace.

As for the sound, it sounds muted and somewhat thocky as every video on youtube shows but the spacebar and stabilisers are very quiet if you don't smash them. Just mentioning the last fact because I have seen some typing demonstrations that had me worried.

If ever the spacebar gets rattly, a good tip I found is to remove it and then gently replace it, not pushing it completely into the stabiliser sockets on either side. It took me a good five minutes of pushing it down, lifting it up and repeating, but I managed to eliminate the rattle from one of mine without taking the board apart and without any unevenness or impaired feeling to the spacebar.