deskthority

Hi guys! I have succesfully tested a new technique to make polyurethane keycaps. My initial motivation was to make the manufacturing process simple enough, so that I can offer standard ANSI/ISO keycaps sets in addition to my Keymacs keyboard kits. As usual, the development took much longer that I expected but the results are pretty impressive.

About the method: The fabrication can be seen as a process of consecutive stages of polyurethane casting and CNC milling. Put simply, instead of overmolding a legend insert as before, I basically engrave the legend on a keycap base, and fill it with a material from the inside. This is a demo of a triple-shot process that consists of three stages of resin casting and five stages of milling:
Compared to the previous process, there are some pros and cons (but mostly pros). Some of the pros:

• Simple maintenance of silicone moulds (two one-part moulds instead of two two-part moulds per keycap).
• Support of arbitrary legends (making DVORAK, COLEMAK, or other exotic layouts does not require new moulds).
• Multiple shots as well as front, side, and rear legends in multiple colors are possible.
• Sharp inner corners of legends.
• Variable legend thickness by using end mills with different diameters.
• Support of more colors (the two-part system cannot be reused for keycaps with different colors because of cleaning issues).
• Support or arbitatry mounts (the mounts are milled, so in addition to Alps, I plan to support others, I have already successfuly tested MX, Beamspring, and Micro Switch SW but I would like to support Topre and perhaps more).
• Variable profile height—if you mill more in the final stage, you get a shorter keycap.
• Superior legend and dish alignment compared to the previous method.

Possible cons:

• Line thickness is bounded from below by the tool diameter (but I have tried 0.3mm end mill and the result looks pretty thin).
• Possible tool wear (yet to be determined).

In the near future, I would like to gradually replace the old process that I used on my Keymacs keyboards by this new one and then, if it passes the test of this semi-industial production, I will finally offer keycap sets for sale. I would like to support standard (subsets of) ANSI/ISO layouts with various types of mounts/stabilizers and variable legends. Since the legends are individually milled for each keycap set, in time I can imagine a “legend editor” allowing to define arbitrary text legends to those who want, …

To give you an idea about the price. I will charge 2€ for each manufacturing stage (casting or milling) of a 1U keycap. So, a blank 1U keycap will be for 4€ (two-stage manufacturing), 1U keycap with engraved legend 6€ (three stages), 1U double-shot keycap 10€ (five stages), Cadet-style triple-shot with front/top legends in different colors 16€ (eight stages). There will be a non-linear price progression for bigger keys. I reserve the right to change the rates in case there is a massive inflation, a new world order, or whatever dissaster is yet to come.

Any thoughts?

Fantastic work! I appreciate the use of Carmen as well

truely a work of art :O

Incredible work as always. I'll look forward to a set for my own Keymacs board in due time.

A masters work — truly inspiring.

All the best for you.

On each and every video you post, I can't help but stand in awe of what you're doing.

With your process, it's not just that you can offer arbitrary legends for any national layouts (*)... you also could very well offer any given layout in a variety of styles: large centered sans serif letters? Yup; top left corner serif letters? Yup; bottom left italic letters? Yup (but don't do that!).


I do have a question, just so I can get an idea of the time it takes to "do" a full set: how much time passes between you fill a mold with the liquid resin and it fully solidifies? On the videos, you always do a "cut" between filling and taking out, so that begs this particular question.

Thanks!


(*) I'm biting my tongue to refrain from shilling any of mine.

Excellent work! You've been such a role model for craftsmanship and perfection!

Once again, very impressive.

depletedvespene wrote: ↑

17 Jun 2022, 16:58

With your process, it's not just that you can offer arbitrary legends for any national layouts (*)... you also could very well offer any given layout in a variety of styles: large centered sans serif letters? Yup; top left corner serif letters? Yup; bottom left italic letters? Yup (but don't do that!).

That is right! And, yes, I am not going into bottom left italic.

depletedvespene wrote: ↑

17 Jun 2022, 16:58

I do have a question, just so I can get an idea of the time it takes to "do" a full set: how much time passes between you fill a mold with the liquid resin and it fully solidifies? On the videos, you always do a "cut" between filling and taking out, so that begs this particular question.

Under normal room temperatures, the polyurethane can be demoulded in 4 hours, I usually give it 6 hours. During a hot summer, I would not be afraid to demould a keycap after 2 hours, though. The silicone is a bit different story. I use mainly Smooth-Sil 945 that cures in 6 hours according ot its specs but in my experience, it much better to demould it after 12 hours. As I said, this applies to normal room temperatures (23º C). This winter, I was a bit afraid of the gas prices, so I heated my house just to 14º C, in that temperature, both the resins and the silicone cure much longer (PU about 8 hours, silicone nearly 24 hours). I typically left the polyurethane to cure overnight. There are definitely faster-setting materials but they also have a limited pot life (and I have not tested their stability). This may be an issue, if you want to inject 20 keycaps at once.

Then the real question: how much?

You know we want these!

Muirium wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2022, 13:32

Then the real question: how much?

You know we want these!

Luckily the real question is answered by some real reading of the initial post

Real impatience exposed!

10 to 16 Euros a key… so, uh, how about colour matching existing keys?

Muirium wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2022, 13:47

Real impatience exposed!

10 to 16 Euros a key… so, uh, how about colour matching existing keys?

Colour matching is one of the things I am not very good at (the mix has a tendency to change colour as the PU cures and the results are very unpredictable). I would like to offer medium and dark grey in addition to black and grey with bluish / greenish tones. I will match it against RAL and PANTONE but I will probably offer a fixed colour palette that will be extended over time.

Cool. I totally sympathise with the irritating difficulty in matching colours. Why I suggest it is these caps are obviously time and labour intensive for you to make, so cost a premium. Us plebs are likely to try to mix and match them with existing sets to save costs where we can.

lispnick wrote: ↑

16 Jun 2022, 16:19

Possible cons:

• Line thickness is bounded from below by the tool diameter (but I have tried 0.3mm end mill and the result looks pretty thin).
  To give you an idea about the price. I will charge 2€ for each manufacturing stage (casting or milling) of a 1U keycap. So, a blank 1U keycap will be for 4€ (two-stage manufacturing), 1U keycap with engraved legend 6€ (three stages), 1U double-shot keycap 10€ (five stages), Cadet-style triple-shot with front/top legends in different colors 16€ (eight stages). There will be a non-linear price progression for bigger keys. I reserve the right to change the rates in case there is a massive inflation, a new world order, or whatever disaster is yet to come.

If we're talking your basic vintage 101 key keyboard, that's a range between 404 Euro and 1616 Euro ($425 to $1701 US). That's cost prohibitive. I'm not saying it's not worth it nor am I saying that the manufacturing cost + whatever % you take as profit is too much. I just think a lot of folks that would otherwise want these caps won't be able to afford them.

Group buy, maybe?

hellothere wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2022, 17:36

If we're talking your basic vintage 101 key keyboard, that's a range between 404 Euro and 1616 Euro ($425 to $1701 US). That's cost prohibitive. I'm not saying it's not worth it nor am I saying that the manufacturing cost + whatever % you take as profit is too much. I just think a lot of folks that would otherwise want these caps won't be able to afford them.

Yep, I agree, it is a lot of money. But I can make 1 keyset per week at most. I can imagine making a 60% blank keyboard in two days but a double-shot TKL will definitely take a week, triple shot 101 keyboard two weeks.

hellothere wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2022, 17:36

Group buy, maybe?

Group buys make only sense if you can mass produce something which is not this case, at least not with this technique.

Yep.

But do you take crypto? Might be suddenly affordable at that point!

NFTs.

lispnick wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2022, 19:37

Yep, I agree, it is a lot of money. But I can make 1 keyset per week at most. I can imagine making a 60% blank keyboard in two days but a double-shot TKL will definitely take a week, triple shot 101 keyboard two weeks.

You've all the sympathy in the world from me Making keycaps is hard, time-consuming work. Given the outstanding quality, your prices make perfect sense.

I would have been happy to pay 16€/cap for Space Cadet Model F caps if I had known how much time and money the R&D would cost. It sure is fun though lol

ThermometerSandwich wrote: ↑

21 Jun 2022, 01:47

You've all the sympathy in the world from me Making keycaps is hard, time-consuming work. Given the outstanding quality, your prices make perfect sense.

I would have been happy to pay 16€/cap for Space Cadet Model F caps if I had known how much time and money the R&D would cost. It sure is fun though lol

Buckling spring mounts are so damn complicated! But, yes, it is on my list. Personally, I would like to have a Symbolics-style keyboard on buckling springs. Also, buckling springs deserve a decent spherical profile.

In the worst case, I can make keycaps just as thin shells that use Model M stems—that would solve 1U keys but what about the larger keys? Another option is to make a dedicated injection-moulded mount reduction.

My plan was to use the stems on the larger keys as well. IBM did this on a couple of >1u caps.

I haven't produced >1u caps yet, but I post updates here when I get time: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27105

ThermometerSandwich wrote: ↑

21 Jun 2022, 13:06

My plan was to use the stems on the larger keys as well. IBM did this on a couple of >1u caps.

I haven't produced >1u caps yet, but I post updates here when I get time: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27105

I must admit I missed this thread. Shame on me! This looks very nice.

Insane work! I really respect every step you make. Insane craftmanship and I hope to hold one of your works in my hands someday. Thanks for your partaking in the community and beyond.

Sadly not everyone is as happy, so I'll just leave this here.

peter_pane wrote: ↑

22 Jun 2022, 20:09

Sadly not everyone is as happy, so I'll just leave this here.
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lol, cute you felt the need to create a new account just to bring my name up.

also, thanks for including the context of that conversation

ill just leave this here

bruh idea23 made a handful of these sets and then took on hundreds more in orders and disappeared from the internet. maybe not the best comparison...

v.equals.c.rhino wrote: ↑

22 Jun 2022, 20:42

bruh idea23 made a handful of these sets and then took on hundreds more in orders and disappeared from the internet. maybe not the best comparison...

bruh...

I wish I could take the sculpt for a test drive, tall sculpts tend to be hit or miss for me.

v.equals.c.rhino wrote: ↑

22 Jun 2022, 20:42

bruh idea23 made a handful of these sets and then took on hundreds more in orders and disappeared from the internet. maybe not the best comparison...

Lmao

lispnick fantastic work!. I was curious if you knew how the dimensions of your keys compare to typical factory alps.

For example if someone used your keys on a Focus keyboard would there be any issue of your keys being too close together based on the factory switch spacing?