deskthority

After giving my opinion on Cherry in a few posts, I've recently been doing some soul searching.

Overall, Cherry have been a mediocre type to me because of how "Meh" some of the switches have felt with their aging tooling and whatnot. However, I am not in the "Anti-Cherry activist" camp.

Blues and Browns are at the bottom of my list. Could have been related to tooling issues.

Reds are right in the middle for me. Not bad, but not phenomenal in my book.

And now for my list of good switches. Blacks and Silent Reds are all decent IMHO. But I really liked Speed!

Some of these individual preferences could just be related to the tooling on one particular switch that I tried.

Anyway, I am interested in hearing you guys' take on this? How much of a difference do you feel on switches made with old tooling vs updated tooling, i.e. 2000s Blue vs Today's Blue? Which Cherry switches do you think are good/bad and why?

JCMax wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 06:27

However, I am not in the "Anti-Cherry activist" camp.

Am I?

I don’t mind a nice solid plate of vintage blacks. They’re perfectly middle of the road, as switches go; and (as Mr. Choc will say if this thread gets negative enough) very much above average for longevity in feel and reliability. Vintage blacks (especially Nixies) are Cherry’s sweet spot for me and many people here: they’re smoother than latter day MX (Cherry’s tooling wasn’t as worn out) and they’re simpler than their click or tactile additions to the design.

If only there was such a thing as vintage browns which could give tactile Alps a worthy challenge!

Scratchy, scuffy, even creaky MX switches are the ones I grumble about on request. If they just made them as smooth as they did before, then I’d be pretty hip with MX as a linear switch with sterling longevity and unparalleled caps. But their tactile and clicky versions, not so much.

Fortunately, the days I had to nudge people (like myself originally) who arrive in the hobby entirely oblivious to the existence of anything besides MX, well, it’s a better time now. Newcomers are after clickbar MX rivals with a host of names instead of the monotonous matrix of reds, blues, blacks and browns. Variety has arrived at last.

Muirium wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 12:35

Scratchy, scuffy, even creaky MX switches are the ones I grumble about on request. If they just made them as smooth as they did before, then I’d be pretty hip with MX as a linear switch with sterling longevity and unparalleled caps. But their tactile and clicky versions, not so much.

I think I've been mostly lucky with the reds I've encountered; the only off-colour one is my current Gateron keyboard where the "e" key went through a bit of a phase of either bouncing or not registering at all, but it seems to have got better now, thankfully. None of them have been noticeably creaky or scratchy and I quite like them: you were correct when you said they were much like the BBC's Futaba(? I think) switches of years ago, both in feel and sound. If anything, even the reds are a bit heavy for my taste but I'm not going down the MX Clear route: I tried a "twitch keyboard" 30 years ago and it was almost unusably sensitive. Wish I knew what switches it had (I've posted about it before in rather vague terms: it was from a Philips terminal, model number possibly P27xx, slightly embellished LK201 layout in grey plastic and superseded its rebadged beige Ampex VT220 clones).

Other half is now using an SSK after being all "but they're too loud!" since forever. Her preference was a Unicomp rubber-dome in spite of her being a touch-typist but after 15 years it finally wore out so she's gone through a series of MX blues, blacks and reds and found various things she didn't like but now loves the SSK. Possibly because I told her how sought-after they are! Talking of which, I seem to have lost one, somehow. Dunno how I managed that.

Not sure what other options are worth looking at if I decide "I like these reds, but they're too heavy, man". I know there's the likes of Gateron which are widely reported to be smoother but there's also suggestions they may not have the longevity. I dunno if that's FUD or harking back to Cherry's "Golden Age" before their tooling went the way of Unicomp's but the doubt is there...

Oh, and I'll never forget whoever described MX browns as feeling like blacks/reds with grit in them. I always wondered what it is about them that I don't like and that summed it up perfectly!

Not much difference in my oppion. I would argue its not down to the switches but instead the keycaps. Cherry switches have a nack for having a different feel depending on keycap profile.

For instance blues with OEM caps usually are slightly heavier and dimmer sound compared to SA/XDA keycaps where the sound is amplified a fair bit and are far lighter to actuate.

The difference is quite startling, and because of this I think it is entirely down to the keycap manufacturing process being different compared with modern and vintage. Couple this with case design and I think the discussion of old vs new cherry is not very clear cut

But thats purely my take, and regardless of what side of the fence you sit on weather you like cherry or not you do have to admit they are pretty durable compared to other modular mechanical switches (looking at you, ALPS)

Browns and Blue are fine for me. I like a bit of tactility.
Overall, switches are less important than the keyboard shape, layout and firmware.

If you need to keep it to just switches from Cherry, I've tried vintage black, reds, (non-vintage) blues, and browns. I think the reds are OK. If you expand the discussion to modern Cherry "clones," I'm quite fond of Kailh Box Jade and I think that Clickiez (40g) are OK -- more OK than Cherry red, but not exactly what I want.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind trying "Nixies" and some other Cherry-made switches. I've really only heard buzz about the low profile /speed switches and I have no need of that, as I'm not a gamer.

Muirium wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 12:35

JCMax wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 06:27

However, I am not in the "Anti-Cherry activist" camp.

Am I?

If the shoe fits...



No judgement!

Seriously though, I know a lot of people are going to be in both Cherry die-hard and Anti-Cherry. It seems like there's a nice even division going on with keyboard enthusiasts.

hellothere wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 18:02

If you need to keep it to just switches from Cherry, I've tried vintage black, reds, (non-vintage) blues, and browns. I think the reds are OK. If you expand the discussion to modern Cherry "clones," I'm quite fond of Kailh Box Jade and I think that Clickiez (40g) are OK -- more OK than Cherry red, but not exactly what I want.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind trying "Nixies" and some other Cherry-made switches. I've really only heard buzz about the low profile /speed switches and I have no need of that, as I'm not a gamer.

Nixies sound interesting.

Not really. Even though Cherry are the main focus, bringing up the clones for some compare and contrast is cool too. Especially if it helps to pinpoint where good Cherry switches fall on the spectrum of good switches. And likewise where bad switches fall on the spectrum of bad switches.

I've tried browns in switch testers before and was very disappointed in how non-tactile they felt to me. I actually had trouble distinguishing between them and the reds at first because of how linear they felt. I had to press slow to feel the "tactile bump."

Although, a coworker let me try them in his gaming board he brought at work. It didn't feel bad that time. Maybe the chassis or the keys made a difference. Maybe I was just in a good mood. Still not quite on par with the blacks, silent reds, or reds, which are Ok.

Speeds were good switches IMHO. They were smooth and fast. Even though I made more typos due to the high actuation point. They were one of my favorites. Who knows. maybe the RGB was a contributing factor, too. I could type on those things like a machine!

Are we talking only Cherry-brand switches? Or Cherry style switches as well? The only Cherry brand switch I’ve tried that I’ve liked are vintage blacks and to an extent modern blacks. There are some decent cherry style switches tho

I have Cherry MX Black, Blue and Brown.
I like Black the best then close to that is Blue and after a while Browns.

For the original lineup of cherry switches, I like mx black and browns aren't too bad if they're not scratchy.
I've tried a lot of clones but for tactiles I like the new badseed tactiles. They're pretty different from most mx tactiles out there and pretty snappy.

Delta Research wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2022, 03:00

For the original lineup of cherry switches, I like mx black and browns aren't too bad if they're not scratchy.
I've tried a lot of clones but for tactiles I like the new badseed tactiles. They're pretty different from most mx tactiles out there and pretty snappy.

What's special about them? Based on a quick look, it seemed like a slight variation on the same old MX tactility mechanism?

Cherry makes really boring or annoying switches, reds are meh, blacks are too stiff, blues are too loud, greens are too heavy and loud, browns aren't tactile and clears are too heavy. Spring swapping helps most of these switches besides blues, greens, browns and the switch I'm going to say but that comes with Cherry's terrible choice of springs. The glorious and inconsistent MX White.

They're basically really worn out MX blues, this is great for the fact they're no longer high pitched but instead have a nice subtle click and with the rattle in my opinion adds to the sound and makes them really unique. The tactility is between browns and blues which pretty much makes them linear while typing. Why i say they're like worn out MX blues is both in sound and how loud the click can be between switches. Some have a whisper quiet click while some are high pitched but still not near MX blue levels.

They have a very similar sound to clicky space invaders but with full 4mm of travel. If you can find any for sale they're usually pretty cheap so there isn't a reason to not give them a go . Buy a few more than you need as some can be quite louder than expected.

Browns are tactile but not clicky. Blues are tactile and clicky. Both are fine as far as I'm concerned.
I tried to use Gateron whites (i.e. blacks with a weaker spring) but I was not impressed.

vvp wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2022, 23:03

Browns are tactile but not clicky. Blues are tactile and clicky.

Dude! No way! What about reds then! Is it like liniur or something??

Reds are linear switches, 45 g. Gateron white (I was trying) are similar - 35 g.

vvp wrote: ↑

22 Dec 2022, 12:38

Reds are linear switches, 45 g. Gateron white (I was trying) are similar - 35 g.

They're called Gateron Clear AFAIK. I think this the first time I have seen anyone call them "white".

CallmeJohn wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2022, 18:05

The glorious and inconsistent MX White.

They're basically really worn out MX blues, this is great for the fact they're no longer high pitched but instead have a nice subtle click and with the rattle in my opinion adds to the sound and makes them really unique. The tactility is between browns and blues which pretty much makes them linear while typing. Why i say they're like worn out MX blues is both in sound and how loud the click can be between switches. Some have a whisper quiet click while some are high pitched but still not near MX blue levels.

The last time I heard about MX White, it still wasn't a settled matter whether they were merely aggressively lubricated blues (or rather greens, considering the spring), or had something fundamentally different about the stem.

Worn out MX Blue is just linear. Sadly, I've had a few keyboards with such switches. But MX White is different. Well, the modern samples that I have feel similar to muted MX Green; not sure if they're from a retooled batch already. However, I also recently got a vintage keyboard with OG MX White, which initially left me very confused, because I didn't even recognize the tactility. No, they weren't worn out.

BTW Cherry has made MX Nature White too. Linear between MX Red and Black.

@davkol: Thanks for correction. I just called them white because the stem is white. I did not have any clue abut their official name.
But the stems are not clear .... oooo the beauty of marketing

I now wonder what some of these contact-less switches we've seen in recent years would be like if Cherry made some of them?

I think Gateron did the Opto-electric switches for the K-100 and Elite. Oetemu or Kaihl did the Wooting boards. And Kaihl are doing the switches for the Keystone from Input Club.

I wonder if these switches would have been worse or better if Cherry had made some of them...

The Varmilo EC switches are non-contact I think, and feature an MX stem, which feel pretty good. Been typing on the Ivy switches, which are one of the smoothest clicky tactile switches I've used.

In terms of actual good MXs, Browns still remain king for me alongside Clears, and the MX ULP switches found in Corsair's K100 Air Wireless also take some beating.

I forgot about Varmilo. I've tried Ivy and Burnt Orange switch-testers and I will agree with you on the Ivy. At least from what I could tell from just a switch tester.

As I said before, the browns I tried in a switch tester at Best Buy felt no different than a linear at first, which got a poor grade from me considering it was supposed to be tactile. But when I tried them in a 2009 Logitech board they felt like they had pretty good tactility. I don't know if there was a mold difference or if the keyboard itself made that much of a difference.

You know this has gotten me thinking about something else. This thread has been focused mostly on good Cherry switches. But are there any Cherry switches someone would call great?

Everybody knows that the only great switches are buckling spring
The rest of the switches are only so so ...

vvp wrote: ↑

27 Dec 2022, 12:53

Everybody knows that the only great switches are Model F buckling spring
The other buckling springs are only so so ...

Fixed.

I KNEW what was coming with that one!

Muirium wrote: ↑

27 Dec 2022, 17:16

vvp wrote: ↑

27 Dec 2022, 12:53

Everybody knows that the only great switches are Topre
The other buckling springs are only so so ...

Fixed.

Re-fixed.

A couple folks mentioned opto-electric. Just a reminder that there are modern Hall-Effect switches out there with MX-compatible stems, like the SteelSeries Apex Pro. If you don't mind linear, that is.

I think APT had a tactile or clicky HE keyboard, but it's been long enough ago that I might be misremembering.

Are we talking exclusively cherry or the clones too?

JCMax wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2022, 06:27

How much of a difference do you feel on switches made with old tooling vs updated tooling, i.e. 2000s Blue vs Today's Blue? Which Cherry switches do you think are good/bad and why?

I think they're all great. Or rather, they can all be great under the right conditions*. My experience is almost entirely with vintage Cherry switches though; I only briefly used switches from their worst era, the 2010s, and they were alright, but definitely too scratchy to be worthwhile for me. I also haven't tried any of their retooled or hyperglide switches, although I've heard reasonably positive things about them. I'm interested in trying them at some point, although I doubt they'd be able to match my best vintage Cherry switches, nevermind beat them.

My favourites in no particular order are:
Vintage browns with no modification,
A+ used vintage blacks with lighter springs (55g-62g) and no lubrication,
A+ NIB vintage blacks with lighter springs (55g-62g) and lubrication (achieves similar smoothness to the above, but has a distinct feeling due to the lubricant),
Vintage clears with lighter springs (62g) and lubrication,
Vintage blues with a very, very light coat of thin lubrication.

And since Nixdorfs have been mentioned here, I count those as vintage blacks. I think there's some truth to people claiming they're smoother, but I'm not convinced it's inherent to the switch - I think they may have just, on average, been used in more hospitable environments when compared to the average vintage black. I've had 5 Nixdorf keyboards/PCBs over the years; four of them were incredibly smooth, easily among the smoothest blacks I've ever had, but the fifth one had the worst, scratchiest blacks I've ever touched.

*What do I mean by "the right conditions" though? For me it comes down two aspects - the switches themselves and the modifications you can do to them. The first of those aspects is a fact which you can't argue with (for example, if your switches are rusted from years of humidity, there's little you can effectively do about that), while the second aspect is a modifier for the first - you can use it to help bring them closer to what you'd like them to be, but if you apply that modifier to a shitty bunch of rusty switches.. it's not gonna do much.

The first half is by far the trickiest to define - I can't say for sure what "the right conditions" are, I can only hazard a guess; I think it comes down to year of manufacture (i.e tooling) and the environments in which they were used/stored. When it comes to judging the years of manufacture for their quality and smoothness, you can only really use new in box and new old stock keyboards, since that removes much of the environmental effect. Using vintage blacks as an example, I've been fortunate enough to own a lot of them in NIB condition over the years, with years varying from all the way back in '85 to the early 2000s. From what I've owned, I think 1988-1990 is the best period for them - vintage blacks from those years are very smooth even in unmodified, NIB condition. They're not as smooth as good MX clones, no question about that, but what they lack in smoothness they make up for in sound - I really can't stand the sound of clones in comparison. They also take incredibly well to lubricant due to their lack of dust, etc. and you can easily make them match clones in smoothness. Pre-1988 NIB are incredible too, although a little less smooth from the examples I've had, and very rare in comparison. '90-'92 is really close to '88-'90, but I think they're a little less smooth. '92-'97 is another small downgrade, but they're still great and can match clones in smoothness if you know how to tune them. From '97 onwards things become more hit and miss; you can still find really smooth ones, but you can also get unlucky and find ones that aren't much better than 2010s examples.

Putting NIB vintage switches aside though, and moving onto used vintage switches - here's where you can get luckiest. There's a few keyboards I own, namely the G80-2000HAD from 1988, some Nixdorf Softkeys keyboards, and a G80-1000HAD from 1988, which are in heavily used condition; these keyboards were clearly used constantly for many years, and yet.. their switches are perfectly smooth - I'm talking clone levels of smoothness, needs no lubrication levels of smoothness. So smooth that the addition of lubricant made them feel less smooth in my opinion. Lucky used keyboards like these are the finest examples of MX in my opinion; they can't be beat by clones, and they need no tuning.

Is there even such a thing as (appropriate vintage) MX blacks that are worn out? Do they always improve with the lubrication of age?

They’re certainly another world from their arch rival Alps in the longevity department. In my own limited Cherry experience: the more worn the caps the better the blacks.

Muirium wrote: ↑

01 Jan 2023, 17:20

Is there even such a thing as (appropriate vintage) MX blacks that are worn out? Do they always improve with the lubrication of age?

Definitely not. As I said, I think it's a question of the environments in which they aged; in the right environment, age and use will improve their smoothness. In the wrong environment, age and use can turn them into horrible, endlessly scratchy switches.

Right. So still a bit of a punt on any given used board, if not quite as dramatically so as Alps.

What sort of timescale do you reckon it would take for 2010s vintage nasty reds to wear smooth, assuming sympathetic environment? Should I make a rig, like those robotic bums at IKEA?