mechanical keyboard authority
https://mail.deskthority.net/
That's the evolution of the species, I suppose
So the question is: where are the Model G, H, I and J keyboards?Early UK-made Model Ms (which typically never had a "Model M" designation on the keyboard to begin with) could have a sticker inside that said "Model G", which makes sense chronologically but it seems it was abandoned in favour of using "M" for membrane and to my knowledge "G" was never utilised by other IBM regions at all. As such, I don't think anything in between existed - pretty much everything that came after the original flagship "Model G"/Model M (the Enhanced Keyboard) has also been membrane driven and either counted as a variant of Model M itself (ie, Models M3, M4/M4-1, M7/M7-1, M8, M9 and M11 buckling sleeve keyboards) or the nomenclature was dropped entirely and replaced with model numbers reflecting the keyboard OEM's nomenclature (ie, KB-8923 to reflect Chicony OEM, SK-8835 to reflect Silitek/LITE-ON OEM).Man from Mars wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 16:25That's the evolution of the species, I suppose
You sure can. Edit your OP. It’s right there. How else do you think people would make those hideous ever-mutating sales threads?
It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 21:21My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.
I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?
I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.del20nd wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:29It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 21:21My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.
I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?
For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.
For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.
Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.
Even though the M is a cost cutting device, it's still a better typing experience than most of the mechanical keyboards that are out these days.Muirium wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:39^ This.
Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!
As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.
*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.
The fact that he's taking this all on mostly alone, and selling these boards at (what seems to be) very fair margins, and that they already cost over $400 means that something has to give. That's just something I've come to accept. If having better QA means that these boards jump from $420 to $650, I'd rather just do the repairs myself. I've taken apart and restored Model F's before, it's not outside my grasp. Personally, I'm amazed that he's able to get it all done even this well, and for this cheap.Muirium wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:39^ This.
Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!
As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.
*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.
$420 is allot of money. But when you think about what's on offer, a perfect replica of capacitive buckling spring keyboard technology which hasn't been manufactured in ~30 years, adapted and cost optimized for small scale batch production (when the design was originally created by a gigantic computer company and optimized for large scale production), all while giving it a modern USB interface and layout... it's amazing that it can be offered at $420 at all.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 23:03I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.del20nd wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:29It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 21:21My understanding is, this company does not accept returns for any reason. A couple of complaints on reddit of people receiving damaged keyboards and the company not making it right.
I know the Model F offers a superior typing experience. But is is "4 times more expensive than a New Model M" superior?
For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.
For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.
Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.
My other problem is I have never typed on a Model F. Actually, I probably did as a child, but I'm not going to remember the typing experience now. And unless I can borrow a Model F with the appropriate cables to make it work on my work PC so I can test drfive it for a few days, I can't risk it.
My understanding is that Ellipse will send parts to fix your keyboard, but he will not refund your money for any reason. That has me a little concerned also.
I get what he's doing and why he's doing it. But his business model is incompatible with my shopping practices. And that's fine. More power to him. I wish him much success.
Yeah, I won't personally knock the M. It offers great value, and was my first run into mechanical boards. I get that it doesn't make sense for most people to invest $400-500 in a computer keyboard, but many more people can justify the $100 that Unicomp wants for ~75% of the experience.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 23:07Even though the M is a cost cutting device, it's still a better typing experience than most of the mechanical keyboards that are out these days.Muirium wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:39^ This.
Ellipse could be a better communicator (it’s often said he sorely needs QA people and a customer support team) but his keyboards are a thing you can actually buy right here in the real world. They are a miracle, with all of the gotchas those entail!
As for feel: F beats M so very hard it doesn’t even make sense to touch M again once F has spoiled you. I’ve an NIB SSK and an unobtainium OG Kishsaver, as well as a pretty nice beamspring (in fact I’ve had the unusual experience of handling several of all of the above!) so I know well what they’re like. For me: F wins, hands down over M and by a technical knockout* over Beam. F is the keeper. Go for one of those and End Game.
*Beamspring is nice. I don’t dispute that. But not sufficiently nicer than F to be worth the compromise on GIGAMUNGOUS keyboard depth, and flaky responsiveness as well. F fixed a lot of issues with beams. It was an engineering job IBM could be proud of. The exact opposite of the cynical bean counting cost reduction that was M.
In the modern mechanical keyboard era, people are way more focused on keeping their keyboards quiet, fancy keycap colors, and weird custom keycaps rather than an actual amazing typing experience. It boggles my mind how many people will argue that linear switches are the only way to go, and even a TKL board is too big.
That wouldn't be a bad option.del20nd wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 23:50$420 is allot of money. But when you think about what's on offer, a perfect replica of capacitive buckling spring keyboard technology which hasn't been manufactured in ~30 years, adapted and cost optimized for small scale batch production (when the design was originally created by a gigantic computer company and optimized for large scale production), all while giving it a modern USB interface and layout... it's amazing that it can be offered at $420 at all.apastuszak wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 23:03I do not think he's price gouging at all. It's just a question of whether you think it's worth it to spend $420 on a keyboard. My expectation is that $420 is a premium price and should come with premium support. Sending me parts to do my own repair just doesn't fly with me. I get why it does for some people.del20nd wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 22:29
It depends on exactly how much damage we're talking about. The keyboards do come with a limited warranty, but "making it right" mostly seems to mean Ellipse mailing off replacement parts, and then it's on the user to repair the board. I'm not Ellipse, nor do I know him personally, but I'd guess this is probably a necessary evil to make the project viable at all. Look how expensive these keyboards are already, and imagine having to make another batch to set aside for warranty claims. I'd rather deal with the chance of having to make a repair than not have the project exist, because I understand that this isn't Samsung we're talking about here, it's a niche undertaking.
For me personally, an ANSI Model F is worth the premium. I spend over 50 hours a week at my keyboard, and it makes sense to buy the best. A Model F with a modern 104 key layout is the ultimate keyboard for me. It's the best balance of key feel, ergonomics and practicality. (Yes, a Model B might technically offer better key feel, and I weighed buying into that project instead, but they're huge, hulking things which need excessive care and feeding. The Model F was more appealing for its relative practicality.) This wasn't a purchase I took lightly, but this is something I've wanted for a very long time, and it will give me a real, measurable quality of life improvement. I bit the bullet.
For some people, the better key feel compared to a Model M won't be worth the price. For others, the improved layout from a Model F XT or AT won't be worth the price (though $420 is on par with or sometimes cheaper than original 122 key F's these days, and certainly cheaper than the rarer variants.) It all depends on what you can afford to pay, and how much having this specific keyboard means to you.
Given my own experience in the manufacturing world, I also don't feel like this is Ellipse trying to be mean or price gouge; given the immense amount of engineering and the manufacturing methods needed to make these things, as well as the small volumes and build quality on offer, the margins he's taking on these can't be that outrageous. This is just what it costs to bring an ANSI Model F into existence.
My other problem is I have never typed on a Model F. Actually, I probably did as a child, but I'm not going to remember the typing experience now. And unless I can borrow a Model F with the appropriate cables to make it work on my work PC so I can test drfive it for a few days, I can't risk it.
My understanding is that Ellipse will send parts to fix your keyboard, but he will not refund your money for any reason. That has me a little concerned also.
I get what he's doing and why he's doing it. But his business model is incompatible with my shopping practices. And that's fine. More power to him. I wish him much success.
Maybe Ellipse should offer a "premium service" option, for people who don't want to deal with the corners he's had to cut to be able to offer the board at $420. Maybe, for an extra $150-200, you get premium "applecare" support where you have a 5 year return window, can send the board in for repairs no questions asked during the warranty period, talk to a real human on the phone with setup issues, etc.
I don't think he could possibly offer it at current prices, but maybe he could make a little extra money by giving even higher rollers the option.
Basically the same as a 122 key, but tenkeyless (so a 104 key F.) In other words, a tkl board with a 10 key left hand cluster and F13-24. It's a rare variant of F122 battlecruiser that actually predates it by a bit, and is the design the F122 is based on.
Sure! I can talk about the subject generally, without going into the nitty-gritty specifics of how the company was run. (That information probably wouldn't help too much anyway, as they worked on a very different scale than this project. In fact, to that end, watching your google talk about the small scale you're working on was fascinating because of how it compared to larger scale manufacturing.)
. I've moved on from this particular company, but am still generally working on the IBM platform.. You already know this, but the general knowledge around making 1,000 of something is wildly, wildly different than the general knowledge around making a million of something. In seeing how you overcame obstacles, I was starting to wonder, for example, if scale played into why you went for aluminum cast casings instead of plastic for the new keyboards, even though nobody would've batted an eye at plastic since it's "period correct" for the newest project: I started looking into it and it seemed like maybe the die casts for aluminum at a small scale, combined with the higher labor cost made more economic sense for you than investing in the very expensive injection molds that would be required to make plastic parts, even though there'd be a labor savings. Or maybe, if it didn't save money directly, if the cost difference was small enough to justify the higher quality case.Sure looks gnarly! I’ve never encountered it, though, not even in parents’ generation die-cast toys like the train above, let alone my Kishsaver. Seems to be a truly vintage problem!Wikipedia wrote:Zinc pest (from German Zinkpest), also known as zinc rot and zamak rot, is a destructive, intercrystalline corrosion process of zinc alloys containing lead impurities. …
It was first discovered to be a problem in 1923, and primarily affects die-cast zinc articles that were manufactured during the 1920s through 1950s. The New Jersey Zinc Company developed zamak alloys in 1929 using 99.99% pure zinc metal to avoid the problem, and articles made after 1960 are usually considered free of the risk of zinc pest since the use of purer materials and more controlled manufacturing conditions make zinc pest degradation unlikely.
As somebody who collects antiques, my experience is that zinc pest was largely solved by the 1950s. I've only ever seen it on one (very cheap) pot metal light fixture made after the 50s, and even that dated to the early 70s.
I had some Soviet and Russian diecast models manufactured in 1990s that fell apart like this. I think the issue was that the alloys they used had a lot of impurities.
