deskthority

Hi everyone,

I entered the world of mechanical keyboards a couple months ago with the Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry MX Brown. Before that I had a Microsoft Natural Ergonomical Keyboard 4000 that was several years old. Although I hate to look back at the R/D switches, I really loved its curved design.

Just for the background: I am 22 years old and type and program a lot. Except for a couple glitches, I am a touch typist with 500 characters per minute.

Always thinking, that I should use an ergonomical keyboard, I sticked to that Microsoft Keyboard for a long time. A friend talked me into getting a mechanical keyboard, but I was not easy about buying a non-ergonomical one. I looked into the Truly Ergonomical Computer Keyboard (TACK). The problem is that I use a Laptop (ThinkPad X220) for a good slice of my typing time, so I did not want to have two keyboards that seem mutually exclusive because of the button layout (Enter, Backslash, etc.).

For a couple days now, my left wrist, where I wear a watch, feels like it is sprained. It started when I was translating my website, which was a lot of fast typing. When I program, I do way less straight typing, so I might have never felt it because of that.

Since I want to do a lot of programming in my future job, I am worried about getting RSI early on. So although I just spend some money on my first keyboard, I consider getting an ergonomic one with mechanical switches.

I'm currently going through reasons to buy it:

• Ergonomical keyboard should be better against RSI.
• I could move the Filco to my girlfriend's and give her a decent keyboard that I could use when I am over.

There are also reasons against it. Could you please tell me whether that is justified or not?

• Since I use a Laptop a lot, getting a keyboard that is way different from a usual keyboard might be pretty bad to my typing speed on both keyboards. Different shape should be fine. But the keys on the TACK are really different, like the backspace on the left side.
• It's a lot of money, but I am willing to spend it for my health. Well, the TACK would be around 250 €, whereas the Kinesis Advantage would range at 415 € to 450 €.

I would be really happy if somebody with a TASK or a Kinesis Advantage or a similar keyboard could help me, considering the laptop keyboard problem.

Some people can frequently switch between different layouts without a problem, while others find it hard. I'm in the former group myself, which I always assumed as I just plain like switching keyboards anyway.

The easiest way to adapt to a new layout, while staying proficient with what you're used to, is to get a new* keyboard where everything is different. You want to give your fingers and your head every hint that these boards are not the same, so you don't keep stumbling when you switch around. Different switches could help: I'd try some reds on the ergo instead of browns. (Mainly because I like them better!) An ergo will feel different through its shape, anyway, so I wouldn't be too worried about alienating yourself from typical flat layouts. But everyone is different when it comes to this stuff, so experiment is required.

Ultimately, what really matters is avoiding that RSI. You're right to want to tackle it as soon as possible. Going ergo again could be a great opportunity to also try whatever different layout you want.

*New to you. No new keyboards required. In fact, the older often the better I find…

You could order the Kinesis directly from kinesis-ergo.com. I love mine.

I don't own a te, but I think you'll be happier with the advantage.

Kinesis have a 60 day return policy. The shipping time from the states will eat into that, but at least you'll be able to buy it with very little risk.

Don't worry about RSI too much. It might cause you RSI, if some of those studies are right. I'd rather recommend to stick with healthy lifestyle, be aware of possible issues, and focus on comfort. I have switched to ergonomic keyboards, Colemak and standing setup... and I still may, or may not get RSI, my productivity is probably still the same, but hey! it feels so much better.

I'm in situation similar to yours. CompSci student, typing a lot, blah blah blah. Moreover, I'm a free software enthusiast. That's why I haven't bought a TECK, although I've considered it at some point. At first, the keyboard appeared to be just vaporware. Every single action of the company behind it was very unprofessional, or even suspicious. For example, they promised that TECK would be programmable. It took them I guess about two years to actually release that feature... and that happened right after someone reverse-engineered their firmware (if I understand that thread at GH correctly). I decided to go with ErgoDox, as it was the more ethical choice IMHO.

Why ErgoDox? It's open hardware with open-source customizable firmware, more portable than the kinesis, and it's even cheaper than the kinesis in my case. I paid about $320 for the whole kit including all additional fees, and it took me 10 hours to assemble it. I'm pretty sure someone more tech savvy would be able to do it faster and cheaper. Just beware that the price I've mentioned isn't really final, because you might want to spend more on a tray/stand, nice cables, possibly customizing switches etc. But yeah, that's what this hobby is about, right?

Now I'm about to build something non-split to replace my typematrix for portable use. Although TM2030 isn't bad at all, I'm annoyed by its lack of programmability and higher-quality keycaps. I'll consider Kinesis Advantage only if they actually listen to most of the user feedback.

Talking about Kinesis, the Maxim looks pretty interesting -- does anybody know what kind of switches it has? The features blurp say "Quiet, tactile switches" which hints at Browns, but it really doesn't say.

@Muirium
I am not sure whether I would be able to switch that quickly. My phone has a German QWERTZ layout, while I use QWERTY on my Linux computers. It took at least a month before I had some sort of idea about the Y and Z on either keyboard without thinking about it too much.

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@hoggy
The problem is that shipping is $90 from US to Germany. Then customs is probably going to take a whole bunch as well. I found two German distributons, they would charge around 420 € for it. And there is a mandated two week return service for all online purchases in Germany, so that should be risk free.

The TECK seems revolutionary against a regular keyboard, but the bowls in the Advantage seem to be even better.

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@davkol
I think I got a pretty healthy lifestyle. Except for the last week, where I just handing around. That is probly main cause for my current pain. I got the Filco keyboard since end of April, so if there were any problem, it should have surfaced earlier.

With ErgoDox, you buy the parts yourself and assemble it? I am a theoretical physicst and I am not really into electronics, more into math and higher programming languages. So I think an already assembled keyboard would be way better for me. Building keyboards is not really a hobby of mine, I rather build software than hardware.

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@Muirium & @davkol
I am not sure how well an ergonomic keyboard helps with that, or how bad a regualar keyboard is for my wrists. Since the left side has reversed staggering, it is no surprise that the left wrist has a lot more movement to do compared to my right wrist.

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The layout of the Advantage seems to be as badly mangled up as the TECK, from my programmers perspective, who uses all the character keys on the keyboard frequently. So the Advantage has no advantage over the TECK in this perspective. Does any of you have such a different layout keyboard and types on a regular laptop as well?

mjl wrote:Talking about Kinesis, the Maxim looks pretty interesting -- does anybody know what kind of switches it has? The features blurp say "Quiet, tactile switches" which hints at Browns, but it really doesn't say.

The Kinesis Maxim is a rebranded Siemens keyboard with rubber dome switches. I haven't tried that particular keyboard, but on other Siemens keyboards with similar styling, the rubber domes are horribly mushy.

I would go for a Goldtouch instead. The modern Goldtouch has light rubber dome keys that have got good reviews. I have not tried that one either, though. The very first generation (which I do have) has quite stiff keys. The lockable hinge is quite cool. (no patent discussions please, the man who designed it is no longer part of the company)

If you decide to go for ErgoDox, you have three options:

1. Build it from scratch. All necessary information is available online, including PCB and case design. It may take a while though.
2. Buy a full kit at Massdrop, and assemble it by yourself. That's what I did, although I knew very little about electronics and had hardly any experience with DIY and soldering in particular.
3. Buy a full kit at Massdrop and pay premium for assembly service. I guess price would be on par with Kinesis Advantage then.

I used a Kinesis for years and now am much happier with a TE. The Kinesis suffers from "palm rest RSI" and I find the rubber eraser function keys almost unusable (I touch type and don't like having to hunt and peck). Also I'd recommend the Kinesis Advantage Pro for the better finish (the other finishes get dirty pretty quickly), but that puts it much more expensive than the TECK. Which one you like better is a matter of preference obviously.

btw I used to be a physicist ...

@davkol
I think I would rather buy a TECK then, since it seems to have the same features and a little nicer casing.

@hurting_hands
Why are you happier with the TECK? What is wrong with the Kinesis Advantage palm rests?

I would think that the Kinesis Advantage Bowls are way superior to the flat design of the TECK, would you say that it is true?

How are you doing on a regular keyboard?

Why are you not a physicist any more?

@hoggy
How are you doing when you type on a laptop or regular keyboard? Do you find all the keys that you need?

Ergo fan here. I love to weigh in on these little debates. For the record, I have owned a Kinesis Freestyle, Goldtouch, Kiniesis Advantage, Maltron, and Ergodox. At the moment, I have settled upon the Maltron and Ergodox, but the Acidfire's project on Geekhack may introduce a new keyboard into the mix for me. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.0

Also, I use the Maltron layout for ergo purposes. A lot less finger movement and pinky usage.

If you have any questions about the boards that I have owned, let me know.

physicist wrote: @hurting_hands
Why are you happier with the TECK? What is wrong with the Kinesis Advantage palm rests?

The TECK has dual symmetric modifier keys (Shift, Control, Command, Meta (for Mac)), i.e. on both hands. The Kinesis spreads them around which is fine for Windows, but for Mac is suboptimal IMO. I also prefer the TECK on the PC, I like having the modifiers laid out in that way. I like the important key center row, frequently I find myself able to perform unusual key maneuvers not possible on other keys, for example hitting return with either the left or the right, or especially TAB! The Kinesis does have Macro facility, but I never used it, but if you want that would be an advantage. However I suspect the TECK will have Macro in the not too distant future. Additional advantages, the TECK has six layers, is MUCH smaller, cheaper, and has REAL function keys. I can barely use the F keys on the Kinesis. And especially, as a programmer I need to navigate a LOT, and the dual arrow key blocks is wonderful.

The palm rest problem is well known at my ergo dept. Because of the key wells it is almost impossible to keep your palms floating above the keyboard all the time. Everybody rests (there are a lot of these keyboards at my workplace), which leads to several ergo issues in the hand. Some people put sandpaper down to try and force themselves to float above the palmrests.

I would think that the Kinesis Advantage Bowls are way superior to the flat design of the TECK, would you say that it is true?

Piano keyboardists have done just fine with a flat keyboard design for centuries. The key well is a good design though, mostly it helps in your hand finding it's position really easily. That's the main improvement in my experience, with the palm rest downside I say above. I type so much I don't need the hand positioning, but I do marginally prefer it. I've thought about sawing off the palm rests to see if that would prevent the resting.

How are you doing on a regular keyboard?

I can switch but I don't like it. I do better on laptop keyboards than regular mechanical oddly.

Why are you not a physicist any more?

When the SSC got canceled I left for engineering. Much happier at any rate.

hurting_hands wrote:

physicist wrote:

How are you doing on a regular keyboard?

I can switch but I don't like it. I do better on laptop keyboards than regular mechanical oddly.

I found this to be the case as well; Laptop keyboards now have key caps that are 3mm wider than regular desktop key caps. My Thinkpad has the newer caps that are both wider and sculpted... the best of both worlds.

@hurting_hands
Modifiers is a good point, I will keep that in mind.

I use Linux, so those macros should be doable with software only from any keyboard. But since I use Vim, I can just put those macros into the program.

SSC is the “Superconducting Super Collider”? I think I will go into theoretical physics and numerics, so major funding is probably not a big issue there.

@hurting_hands @Burz
I know what you mean. While I had the *Microsoft 4000* keyboard, I was either able to type on that, or my 91%-size keyboard on the Eee-PC. Now I have a regular sized mechanical keyboard and a regular sized ThinkPad keyboard, and both work fine.

physicist wrote:
@hoggy
How are you doing when you type on a laptop or regular keyboard? Do you find all the keys that you need?

Works out okay for me. I tend to swap keyboards often, it seems to make it easier to adapt to new layouts - far easier than it used to be at any rate.