deskthority

I've been looking into alternatives to the QWERTY layout, mostly in search of something more comfortable, as I'm programming all day. (I'm also looking into the Ergodox keyboard, but that's a subject for another thread.)

I've been trying out Workman and Norman, both of which seem promising. Does anyone here have experience with either of them?

I'm also a Vim user, which means switching layouts will do "interesting" things to the hjkl navigation keys I'm used to, but I'm prepared to give it a shot nonetheless.

There seems to have been a bit more discussion of these over at geekhack, but it has come up a few times here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%28work ... ack.org%29

I like the idea of Workman, but I'm not sold on its superiority over Colemak. That bottom row in particular. Colemak's very smart to keep ZXC and V in the "right" place where I'm already reaching for them. Those keys are all about undo and clipboard functions, in a neat row.

Search for Workman at the Colemak forum (no kidding). Some folks have found it very comfortable.

The ZXCV argument is rubbish. First, you have the Dvorak-QWERTY layout on OS X, and it's possible to implement its equivalent with a different layout even on different systems. Second, I'm not convinced that one-handed Ctrl+ZXCV combos are a good idea in the first place—in fact, my experience suggests the exact opposite—and changes in fingering require some amount of relearning anyway.

Why would you use CTRL+ blah for things like clipboard and undo? That seems strange. In Vi we use single keys (this makes it easier).

Every other app on your system works the same, modal, way?

From what I understand, VI is entirely modal. So those copy paste keys take another trigger to reach, first. How convenient!

You're in the command mode in the first place, and only leave it to type. Convenient? What does it even mean? Efficient? Absolutely. Idiot-friendly? Not at all.

It's possible to have most of a unix system w/ X Server behave like this.

when i type in dvorak with only 40wpm and qwerty still same arround 40wpm
the important is keytravel switch, staggering.etc before layout

Also: Dvorak isn't great. Try Colemak, Workman, or even better: an ergonomic layout designed for your primary language. (I know about only a handful of those, like Bépo for French.)

@Davkol: Toggling between modes just for copy and paste is asinine. I'll gladly concede VI's command mode has a world of merit for complex manipulations, but for the boneheaded simple stuff all of us use, instantaneous keyboard shortcuts are ideal. And universal, by default!

ivan wrote: ↑ I'm also a Vim user, which means switching layouts will do "interesting" things to the hjkl navigation keys I'm used to, but I'm prepared to give it a shot nonetheless.

I solved the problem by adding the arrow keys on second layer in the hjkl qwerty position :

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?r ... cf9763cc4e

Muirium wrote: ↑Also: Dvorak isn't great. Try Colemak, Workman, or even better: an ergonomic layout designed for your primary language. (I know about only a handful of those, like Bépo for French.)

yup, i want tried colemak/workman when my kibord finished. i just like position ,. in dvorak
no layout there for my language cuz follow english

Muirium wrote: ↑Also: Dvorak isn't great. Try Colemak, Workman, or even better: an ergonomic layout designed for your primary language. (I know about only a handful of those, like Bépo for French.)

Bépo is de facto a Dvorak layout just like DSK, same preferences, only a different corpus. So much for "Dvorak isn't great". ^_~

Muirium wrote: ↑@Davkol: Toggling between modes just for copy and paste is asinine. I'll gladly concede VI's command mode has a world of merit for complex manipulations, but for the boneheaded simple stuff all of us use, instantaneous keyboard shortcuts are ideal. And universal, by default!

Nah, you're just trying to apply a completely different philosophy there. Don't forget that copypasta consists of several steps:

1. select what you want to copy
2. move to the place, where you want to paste it
3. paste it

Movement is very efficient in Vi, and so is selection. There's also a system of buffers, the the dot hotkey, etc.

If you want to use a pointing device in the process, well, we have the mouse wheel and a special buffer for this.

I am currently switching to Workman and since it's not very easy I'm tryting to find some new ways to learn to do that faster. This far I have been using Typing Study (http://www.typingstudy.com/en-us_workman-3/), but I would like to know if there is something else which could make the transition easier?

alinh wrote: ↑

ivan wrote: ↑ I'm also a Vim user, which means switching layouts will do "interesting" things to the hjkl navigation keys I'm used to, but I'm prepared to give it a shot nonetheless.

I solved the problem by adding the arrow keys on second layer in the hjkl qwerty position :

https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?r ... cf9763cc4e

Interesting. hjkl is what has prevented me from trying other layouts. Funny thing is that I've for a long time had arrow keys on a layer under hjkl, but I just never tried using them for navigation much in vim because, well, we already have hjkl. Okay! I'm going to train myself to use the layer exclusively by disabling hjkl in vim and then try a different typing layout.

sypl wrote: ↑Interesting. hjkl is what has prevented me from trying other layouts. Funny thing is that I've for a long time had arrow keys on a layer under hjkl, but I just never tried using them for navigation much in vim because, well, we already have hjkl. Okay! I'm going to train myself to use the layer exclusively by disabling hjkl in vim and then try a different typing layout.

I may be a bit of an odd duck, but I learned Dvorak prior to Vi, and the HJKL positioning just seems natural to me. J and K are still adjacent for up/down movement, and H is still to the left of L, so it's not like things would be reversed.

"just seems natural"

wat

dvorak wrote: ↑

sypl wrote: ↑Interesting. hjkl is what has prevented me from trying other layouts. Funny thing is that I've for a long time had arrow keys on a layer under hjkl, but I just never tried using them for navigation much in vim because, well, we already have hjkl. Okay! I'm going to train myself to use the layer exclusively by disabling hjkl in vim and then try a different typing layout.

I may be a bit of an odd duck, but I learned Dvorak prior to Vi, and the HJKL positioning just seems natural to me. J and K are still adjacent for up/down movement, and H is still to the left of L, so it's not like things would be reversed.

I can see that. Typing ain't nothing but muscle memory and those positions don't seem outrageous. The first time I started using hjkl, j and k to go up and down seemed weird but I got used to it pretty quick.

Of course, there are other layouts that put the hjkl in weirder positions. Norman is crazy for this. Colemak and Workman are a little better except they use 'fighter pilot' navigation: down to go up, up to go down.

Anyway, like I said, best for me to pretend hjkl don't exist for nav in vim and just exclusively use the (layered) arrows. I think though, another difficulty will be things like Vimium and VimFx plugins for the browser (what, you still use a mouse to click on links?), which optimise their links for the home row.