deskthority

http://matias.ca/mice/m20/

The big claim to fame is that they made the mouse entirely out of PBT, with an aluminum center button and scroll wheel.

Right now it's available in black and white, wired, with a USB-C or USB-A cable. Wireless version coming later this year.

Being a sucker for all things Matias, I drove over to Micro Center and picked one up.






I did some digging into PBT mice and this may be the only solid PBT mouse. I found some other mice that are ABS with a PBT a coating, but nothing that is solid PBT.

The mouse feels really good in the hand. It's a little small for my hand size. But I still like it.

It has a simple 3 button design with a scroll wheel, so you won't need any drivers to use it. It glides smoothly.

The mouse uses Omron switches rated for 50 million clicks.

For a wired mouse, it's a little pricey at US$50.

My experience with mice is that what usually goes first is the plastic. It gets shiny from use and brittle, and any grippy pads on it get sticky with age.

With this mouse being solid PBT and aluminum, with Omron switches, I expect that the mouse will still be woking 20 years from now with no cosmetic damage. So, it might be worth it.

It's nice that they managed to make the body entirely out of PBT, but IMO it looks like it was printed on a 3D printer in someone's basement and the accents were painted with a silver Sharpie.

Matias makes some nice products from a technical standpoint, but their aesthetic choices can be... a bit polarizing.

PBT is never going to be as shiny and smooth as ABS. Up close it does not look 3D printed. The plastic feels very nice. The aluminum wheel and button do look a bit rough, but I think that's on purpose. I think Matias is trying to avoid using that rubber grippy material that goes to goo in a decade, and a perfectly smooth and shiny aluminum scroll wheel would slip under the fingers if you scrolled too quickly.

The look may be polarizing, but I think that this mouse is built to last. I really like the feel of this thing in my hand.

Ducky Secret was PBT. Apparently some version is still available.

That's the only other one I can find.

There are a few other gaming mice that are ABS with a PBT coating.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 17:45

I think Matias is trying to avoid using that rubber grippy material that goes to goo in a decade.

I'm convinced manufacturers started using that stuff as a deliberate ploy to reduce their items' lifespan. I'd love to know how much perfectly functional items have been thrown away because they look and feel gross.

My OG, purchased new in 1999, Intelimouse Explorer got sticky on the sides sometime through the years. It had that stuff down beside the side button cluster. Real icky after a time.



But it was stored in a plastic tub of miscellaneous electronics at that point, as the USB cable is what killed it. Hideous planned landfill design. The stress relief inside the body is designed with the goal to fray the cable’s innards, which it did, but only after the ferrous blob on the plug end had got there first. That Windows “USB device connected / disconnected” sound? Yep, discovered its existence and then some with this.

The intellimouse Explorer was a great design.

I honestly think the grippy stuff wasn't really planned obsolescence. At the time they came up with that stuff, I don't think anyone knew how long it would last. It solved an immediate problem, so they went with it.

Nobody plans for their products to still be working 10-20 years down the road.

I bought the new Intellimouse Explorer when it came out, and it has the same grippy stuff that's going to get sticky.

What really annoyed me was that that same stuff was all over a rather expensive Nikon N80, SLR film camera I bought back in the late 90s. I don't use film cameras any more, but I pulled it out a few years ago, and that stuff was all nasty and sticky. It's one thing to have it on a $20 mouse. But on a $400 camera?

Ok, question for people reading this thread.

I'm a very simple mouse user. I like 3 buttons and a scroll wheel. I see a lot of complaints about this mouse not having back and forward buttons. I've never used back and forward buttons on a mouse. I always just use Ctrl/⌘+ → or Ctrl/⌘ + ←.

Do you use forward and back buttons on your mouse?

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 21:33

It's one thing to have it on a $20 mouse. But on a $400 camera?

The X-rite i1pro 2 spectrophotometer (which gets rebadged as the Fiery ES-2000) has it too. Those are also definitely not cheap devices. I bought a saucepan a couple of years ago which turned out to have that stuff on the handle. It was already gross and sticky, supposedly brand new.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 21:33

I honestly think the grippy stuff wasn't really planned obsolescence. At the time they came up with that stuff, I don't think anyone knew how long it would last. It solved an immediate problem, so they went with it.

The sticky coating can be scratched or sanded off with the help of some naphta. A bit of work though.
I did it on a Logitech MX518.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 21:37

Do you use forward and back buttons on your mouse?

I've always used the web browser with the keyboard. Alt+Left and Alt+Right.
I use two mouse buttons. Had the scrollwheel removed. Miss having a proper middle-button.

I think that for side-buttons to work, the ergonomics would have to be just right. They would have to be close to the thumb position while not interfering with the normal grip of the mouse in any way. In the latter case, if you can't have them not interfere with the thumb's normal grip, it would be better to leave them out than have them, I think.
I'm using a semi-vertical "ergonomic" mouse, which does have two side buttons but they are below the mouse's thumb rest. First: they are not very accessible. Second: pressing a button nudges the whole mouse sideways, which is also not OK.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 21:37

Ok, question for people reading this thread.

I'm a very simple mouse user. I like 3 buttons and a scroll wheel. I see a lot of complaints about this mouse not having back and forward buttons. I've never used back and forward buttons on a mouse. I always just use Ctrl/⌘+ → or Ctrl/⌘ + ←.

Do you use forward and back buttons on your mouse?

No, and I find them to be annoying all the way to hell. On my Logitech mouse, I've reprogrammed one to be the middle button (out-of-factory, the scroll wheel is both scroll and middle button) and the other to mute/unmute the volume.

I never did find a use for those buttons on the Intelimouse Explorer. Accidental presses were far too destructive.

Muirium wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 21:24

My OG, purchased new in 1999, Intelimouse Explorer got sticky on the sides sometime through the years. It had that stuff down beside the side button cluster. Real icky after a time.



But it was stored in a plastic tub of miscellaneous electronics at that point, as the USB cable is what killed it. Hideous planned landfill design. The stress relief inside the body is designed with the goal to fray the cable’s innards, which it did, but only after the ferrous blob on the plug end had got there first. That Windows “USB device connected / disconnected” sound? Yep, discovered its existence and then some with this.

I'm still using that mouse as my daily mouse except i have the "dark grey"? version, but the colour has worn off and it is slowly turning just black. I'm thinking of trying to polish the rest of the silver off it so it would at least be uniform. But i do agree on the stress relief for the cable being so-so, same problem i think was in my WMO mouse i really loved the shape of it, but it has one day just started to randomly "unplug" I guess the cable could be the problem.

robinsonb5 wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 20:02

apastuszak wrote: ↑

14 Mar 2023, 17:45

I think Matias is trying to avoid using that rubber grippy material that goes to goo in a decade.

I'm convinced manufacturers started using that stuff as a deliberate ploy to reduce their items' lifespan. I'd love to know how much perfectly functional items have been thrown away because they look and feel gross.

I absolutely hated that kind of coating on everything. I wish thinkpads had just plain plastic on the lid because i remember this was the thing i least liked about my x60s when i used it.

As much as I like Matias keyboards, this is looking a little gimmicky to me. Then again, I really do not care how my mouse feels or looks when it comes to finish over time. The ergonomics at least look good. What I really like is weighted scroll wheels that just glide smoothly, like on some Logitech mice.

Really don't care about any extraneous controls.

Will be interesting to hear how this holds up and further impressions over time.

Maledicted wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2023, 18:57

As much as I like Matias keyboards, this is looking a little gimmicky to me. Then again, I really do not care how my mouse feels or looks when it comes to finish over time. The ergonomics at least look good. What I really like is weighted scroll wheels that just glide smoothly, like on some Logitech mice.

Really don't care about any extraneous controls.

Will be interesting to hear how this holds up and further impressions over time.

I think the target market here is people that buy Matias keyboards already. Macs do not some with a keyboard or mouse these days. So, if you are a company that ordered say 20 Mac minis, and 20 Matias keyboards, you'd much rather just throw 20 Matias mice into the same order than deal with another vendor.

And if you are a company, the last thing you want to deal with is wireless peripherals. You can't lock them down. Help Desk calls go up when people complain their keyboard or mouse are broken, when they really just need batteries or need a charge. Wired peripherals work 100% of the time and don't generate help desk calls, unless they're really broken.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2023, 19:56

Macs do not some with a keyboard or mouse these days.

Mac Mini’s don’t come with a keyboard or mouse these days. And never did:
To be fair, you’re right about the Mac Studio too. (An ugly duckling of a machine if I ever saw one, which somehow has a good rep.) The iMac and Mac Pro still come with mice / trackpads and keyboards with various language and size options.

Most Macs are laptops now (by an overwhelming majority) and those never came with keyboards and mice in the box, which is likely still Matias’s market.

Matias made a great niche for itself by cloning the wired Apple chicklet keyboard after Apple discontinued it.

When Apple came out with those horrible butterfly switches, I'm sure that helped Matias' sales.

The butterfly switches kept me from buying a new MacBook Pro for a LONG time. I'd walk into an Apple store and type on the keyboard for a few seconds. An employee would come over to see if I needed help and I would tell them I am not typing on that for the next 5 years.

Are there actually companies that buy Matias keyboards to accompany their Apple hardware purchases? They're already paying a lot for the Apple hardware, why pay $50 for a basic wired mouse for each system as well? They should have dozens of old mice lying around from the last 20 years of OEM hardware purchases. I know the school district I was a tech in still had ancient HP and Dell peripherals even though the kids destroyed them constantly in the labs.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2023, 21:16

The butterfly switches kept me from buying a new MacBook Pro for a LONG time. I'd walk into an Apple store and type on the keyboard for a few seconds. An employee would come over to see if I needed help and I would tell them I am not typing on that for the next 5 years.

I’m sure the store clerk then rang Sir Jony [sic] Ive to inform him of this shocking revelation. It’s not like the media had noticed their malfunctioning Macs and kept on (rightly) whining about it…

The best thing to happen in Apple in recent years is Ive’s retirement. Suddenly, the keyboards were fixed. Soon later, every Mac was redesigned. It’s like someone cared again.

I know where I work, with the pandemic, there are no old keyboards and mice. They were all donated, and every employee is expected to bring their own with them. You can order them through work, but at the end of the day, there is not supposed to be a keyboard and mouse on a desk anywhere in the building.

I don't know how that works anywhere else.

I know Matias STRONGLY caters to Mac users. Even this new mouse has firmware they wrote that allows the Mac to detect is as an Apple brand mouse. I have no inside knowledge of how their sales work. But I have to think that corporate purchases are a not-insignificant portion of their sales.

I'm using a Tactile Pro with my Mac right now, and I REALLY appreciate all the extra symbols on the keycaps showing me the available Option key and Shift+Option key combos.

Those Option legends are indeed the best thing Matias does. Even Apple’s further hidden them away with the death of the venerable (and obscure) Keyboard Viewer.



It was smart enough to know the keyboard’s physical layout (if you were using one of Apple’s) and reflected the system’s national layout too. Plug in a “generic” USB keyboard and it looked like this:



You’d never guess that was an HHKB! But that’s the USB HID for you. All keyboards, no matter their size, can type anything.

Muirium wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2023, 21:27

apastuszak wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2023, 21:16

The butterfly switches kept me from buying a new MacBook Pro for a LONG time. I'd walk into an Apple store and type on the keyboard for a few seconds. An employee would come over to see if I needed help and I would tell them I am not typing on that for the next 5 years.

I’m sure the store clerk then rang Sir Jony [sic] Ive to inform him of this shocking revelation. It’s not like the media had noticed their malfunctioning Macs and kept on (rightly) whining about it…

The best thing to happen in Apple in recent years is Ive’s retirement. Suddenly, the keyboards were fixed. Soon later, every Mac was redesigned. It’s like someone cared again.

Ive was great when Steve Jobs was around. I think Jobs kept him in check with a lot of things. When Jobs died, they made Ive Chief Design Officer and there was no one to rein him in. Suddenly we get this obsession with "thin" and an Apple Watch that was made of ceramic and gold and cost thousands of dollars. Then Ive left and we have new MacBook Pros, that actually has ports and a decent keyboard, and the Apple Watch now costs a reasonable amount of money and is a proper fitness device.

Jony Ive would have never released the Apple Watch Ultra. It's big and bulky. But it fits it's target market well.

Hope this new era of Apple will stop putting form over function.

Ive got bored. The magic was gone without his old friend / harshest critic stalking around the office! When Ive was on his game, every new generation of iMac was an exciting design transformation. Without Steve, they didn’t even bother tweaking it. Until, BAM!, nice new playful iMacs as soon as Ive was gone.

He was a great designer, but you either ship or get off the pot…

The rumor is he checked out long before he left. Apple was just paying him to stick around so they didn't lose Jobs and Ive at the same time.

Yeah, but in that case he should have let someone else green-light new work. Everything was so backed up by 2016 and onwards.

I think it was really about that enormous fight Ive and Forstall had. How I wish the other man had won. It’s a fun alternate universe to imagine if he did!

Jonny Ive can make incredible designs as long as you reign him in. I really wish Apple had put their foot down and told him his designs needed to have user serviceable batteries.

Heck, look at the iPod. Brilliant design, and easily serviceable. So many iPods being refurbished and resold. I had a PowerMac G4 back in the 90s. You pull the handle on the side and it just folds down on it's hinge with the whole motherboard exposed.

That's the kind of design philosophy we need.

It's possible to make stuff functional and beautiful. If they toid Ive to come up with a full-size mechanical keyboard, I'd love to see what he would come up with.

apastuszak wrote: ↑

18 Mar 2023, 02:29

I had a PowerMac G4 back in the 90s. You pull the handle the side and it just folds down on it's hinge with the whole motherboard exposed.

I've been tinkering with one of those recently (I wanted to try out MorphOS) - and I have to agree, the case design is amazing. I don't much like the look of it, but the practicality is second to none - even with a locking bar that you could pull out and put a padlock through to prevent the side opening.

Sadly it came with a truly horrible rubber dome monstrosity of a keyboard. (My perfectionist streak forced me to dismantle the keyboard that came with this machine and clear out all the dust, lint and thrips that had collected in the back and were thus clearly visible through the transparent case!)

The Blue & White G3 deserves the credit for that "El Capitan" open door case. You could (and I did) run one of those with the door open if you wanted! My excuse was tracking down which damn RAM stick wasn't up to snuff for OS X. Panther I think. OS 9 was much more forgiving on memory timing.



Man, I loved the turn of the century Apple design era. Those atrocious keyboards aside, they were firing on all cylinders: software and hardware, with and without Jony Ive. He had no hand in the OS until he had (his personal enemy number one) Scott Forstall booted out shortly after Jobs died.

Ive was vital, back when Steve was pushing him. Hardware design truly matters. But Scott Forstall made a little something called the iPhone. Once his butt was out the door, Apple’s momentum screeched to a halt regards their platforms. Why is the iPad still so hampered by its rough draft of an OS? And why is the Watch still so undeveloped? They got the AirPods right, because earphones don’t need much of an interface design. But anything more nuanced? They were on such a roll…

Good luck with VR, guys.