deskthority

Hello friends,

We are launching a new keyboard/mouse combo device on Kickstarter, and we're looking for input to shape the final design of the product.

I came across this forum, and it looks like there are a lot of knowledgeable members here who know a lot about keyboards and mice and could offer very valuable feedback.

We exhibited at the CES tradeshow, so we collected some feedback there and made some product changes:
• Switched to Cherry MX Brown keyswitches (we had used Cherry ML switches in our first prototypes)
• With the change to Cherry MX switches we also enlarged the keys
• Added LED backlighting
• Added USB interface for even lower latency (now you can connect with Bluetooth or USB)

Here's a link to our Kickstarter project: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/16 ... e-invented

If any of you have suggestions or feedback, feel free to reply here or on our Kickstarter project.
We value your input.

Thanks!
James

Hello, welcome to DT. Seems like an interesting project. Those curved keycaps are interesting.

First off, not everybody likes MX browns! Some options might entice more users. Even if you just add MX red and MX blue, though MX clears are very popular too.

Scott,
Thanks for your input. If we can offer the MX red, MX blue, and MX clear without too much additional cost, we're definitely open to doing that. We will look into this.

Regarding the curved keycaps, those will be changing with the switch to Cherry MX switches. The keycaps will likely be closer to a standard Cherry keycap.
-James

Welcome to DT!
With such concepts (as in Kings Assembly) I struggle to find the logic behind using half the board as a mouse.
Dealing with the inertia of 300gr is not something I want to try for any amount of time.
A better solution might be a trackball or a trackpoint.
On the other hand it is nice to see something out of the regular (not new, somewhat different).
A couple of Q's
The two halves, how do they communicate between them?
Why the need for drivers to make Arrow shift and Numpad shift work? You have dedicated buttons for them, put the functionality in the firmware!
Why so many thumb keys? Thumb dexterity is lacking, especially with the side of the thumb! Fewer, bigger keys might be better?

Chzel,
We're definitely trying to keep the device as light weight as possible.
We are also considering a trackball version.

Answers to your questions:
"The two halves, how do they communicate between them?"
Right now, the two halves do not communicate with each other. They each connect to the computer as a bluetooth device (also adding USB)
"Why the need for drivers to make Arrow shift and Numpad shift work? You have dedicated buttons for them, put the functionality in the firmware!"
The driver is necessary because the devices don't communicate with each other. We may make them communicate with each other in the future. We would have to make changes to the electronics to do this.
"Why so many thumb keys? Thumb dexterity is lacking, especially with the side of the thumb! Fewer, bigger keys might be better?"
I totally agree. When we got the prototype created, we immediately could see that we needed fewer, bigger buttons for the thumb area. So we are making this change.
-James

KeyMouse wrote: ↑ The driver is necessary because the devices don't communicate with each other. We may make them communicate with each other in the future. We would have to make changes to the electronics to do this.

Maybe you should dedicate two thumb buttons on the right side to the Arrow and Numpad Shifts?
Drivers for keyboard functionality are bad news for compatibility. You don't want to cripple the customers who choose Mac or Linux! And it creates more support headaches for you.

I like the concept, some very good points there. Ergonomic keyboards should definitely be two-part, and I like how you seem to have put some serious thoughts and testing into the design of the curved form. I also like the fact that the key layout seems to be fully customizable in software. People who buy keyboards in this price class definitely want that. I also really like that its both usable with bluetooth and with USB.

As I understand it, you move the right half around on your desk like a mouse, right? One central point to me is that it's hard to judge if the form and weight of that half keyboard will allow comfortable use as a keyboard and a mouse at once. Could be an epiphany, could be unusable, I just don't know. While as a mouse it would have to be as light as possible, I guess as a keyboard you don't want it to feel cheap/shabby either. This is a major point for me that I guess will be hard to tackle for you -- I would be hesitant to buy this device with this price point without being really sure that using it as a keyboard as well as a mouse works well for me.

Some minor points:

I'm not sure if I like the rubberized surface. I had a mouse with that, and the rubber became ugly, soft and smelly, at some places even sticky, after a relatively short time. If you need that surface for the grip it provides when using it as a mouse, please make sure it can be replaced.

Del and Backspce are two very important keys for me. I don't know if I'm alone with that, but I'd like the del key to be more prominently placed.

chzel wrote: ↑

KeyMouse wrote: ↑ The driver is necessary because the devices don't communicate with each other. We may make them communicate with each other in the future. We would have to make changes to the electronics to do this.

Maybe you should dedicate two thumb buttons on the right side to the Arrow and Numpad Shifts?
Drivers for keyboard functionality are bad news for compatibility. You don't want to cripple the customers who choose Mac or Linux! And it creates more support headaches for you.

That is a great idea. You're right. Having the Number Shift and Arrow shift on the right side would eliminate the need for the devices to talk to each other for those functions. I'll relay this to the team.

Thanks for the feedback Halvar.

Halvar wrote: ↑ As I understand it, you move the right half around on your desk like a mouse, right? One central point to me is that it's hard to judge if the form and weight of that half keyboard will allow comfortable use as a keyboard and a mouse at once. Could be an epiphany, could be unusable, I just don't know. While as a mouse it would have to be as light as possible, I guess as a keyboard you don't want it to feel cheap/shabby either. This is a major point for me that I guess will be hard to tackle for you -- I would be hesitant to buy this device with this price point without being really sure that using it as a keyboard as well as a mouse works well for me.

You are correct. There is a mouse sensor under the right and left side, so either one (or both) are moved around like a mouse. As far as weight - I've been using our prototypes, and I don't notice the extra weight. We for sure want to keep it as light as possible.

Halvar wrote: ↑ I'm not sure if I like the rubberized surface. I had a mouse with that, and the rubber became ugly, soft and smelly, at some places even sticky, after a relatively short time. If you need that surface for the grip it provides when using it as a mouse, please make sure it can be replaced.

Very good point - we'll make sure it's a durable surface that will look nice over time. We're also considering making that palm rest interchangeable to better accomodate different hand sizes with different size palm rests.

Halvar wrote: ↑ Del and Backspce are two very important keys for me. I don't know if I'm alone with that, but I'd like the del key to be more prominently placed.

I use my fair share of the Del key. We may put a delete key next to the space bar that's as big as a regular key.

Bluetooth is interesting. What chipset are you using? We build a lot of custom projects around here, which are almost all USB. Going Bluetooth is very appealing! Especially if it's combined with a USB controller. Charging over USB is the easy part. I'm intrigued how you're switching to a USB connection…

I like that you initially went with Cherry ML. Those are quite nice, very overlooked switches. MX is definitely what the market wants, though, so it's still the right choice. (I'm typing just now on a NovaTouch with Topre switches specifically altered to accept MX caps: they're so dominant in the mech keyboard realm.) MX clear isn't very ergonomic though! Red and brown are the two best choices. Plus blues for all those newbs who are so certain they need a click!

I don't think MX red are a good option here. Your fingers always rest on the keys and MX Red are very easy to miss-type.

I believe that in this kind of configuration the MX Brown is the best option (even though it's the worst MX switch of all of course). It would be nice to test MX Blues though. Cherry ML are not even worth considering. Worst switch ever designed.

Good luck for your project, I would never use such a thing, but I'm happy it exists (or it will exist)

Thanks for the feedback guys!

It looks like there's a pretty big demand for more than just Cherry MX brown switches.
Hopefully we will be able to let customers choose what type of MX switch they want (red, blue, brown, clear, etc)

It shouldn't be too hard to use different switches in manufacturing.

Hi,
I hope it's not too late, for commenting and adding ideas.

I'm currently building a prototype similar to your board, and I will use 2D analogs joystings for my tumbs, like psp, or openpandora.

On pandora, they are two analogs sticks, one for mouse control, and the second for the clics: simple, double, right and middle. Each was associated with one direction. It was quite pleasant to use. The main advantage is that you have 4 or more keys taking the place of only one button.

I've build one for testing on my own prototype, but it is still not arrived, so cannot add more feedback for the moment.

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Another thing, we spoke a bit on the french bépo mailing list. The main default that we found on your board was on the left hand. It has the same problem than normal keyboard: the keys have a shift toward to the left. A matrix alignment could be a better thing (like the maltron).

Thanks for the inspiration of your work, and sorry for my english :)
I hope my first post on DT will be usefull