deskthority

Regarding this change I feel tempted to add a rule to the conventions on editing the wiki about personal opinions, but I suppose this requires some consensus first.

My view on this is that opinions as a general rule should be left out of the wiki, but are OK as long as they reflect the feeling of a significant number of users, and are backed up as usual by an external reference. In the case above, I think most, or at least a quite significant amount of people would agree that Cherry MY is not exactly a great switch to use (to put it mildly), therefore expressing that on the wiki is warranted because it's useful information for anyone considering to spend their money on it.

Can be agree on this?

I agree.

It would only be informative to know if the object of the article is popular or unpopular, and especially: why.
If the description quotes some colourful expression of that, then that could only help expressing a point.

The paragraph in question is a good example of that, and is not a personal opinion.
However, the paragraph following it: "feels fairly reasonable" is a personal opinion, and should be edited.

Lol, lmao.

Citing one person's overdramatic assessment of the feel of a switch is in no way a comment of the common opinion. You'd need a much more thorough statement from a lot larger number of people to make such information relevant to a wiki page.

Someone saying "This switch sucks" isn't useful information at all, not only do people have differing opinions on what makes a switch good, the statement here doesn't have any information on why the switch isn't good. "The leaf spring that MY uses for membrane actuation flexes when bottoming out in a way that imparts a very unusual feeling to the key travel. This combined with the difficulty in restoring the switch makes them an unattractive switch all around." Is a statement that actually tells you something. "Its like typing on wet newspaper" is just someone being dramatic.

As for whether something is popular/unpopular I don't think that's necessarily helpful either. Loads of folks, especially folks new to the hobby, will come in with opinions formed mostly from watching reviewers say X is bad and Y is good but they haven't actually tried any of these switches yet so their opinion is less than worthless because it isn't actually theirs.

Tldr: The wiki isn't a popularity contest or a review site, its for reporting confirmed and well documented information. If an opinion is reported it should be thorough and be commenting on specific elements of the switch. "Switch bad" doesn't make the cut. "Switch bad because..." does.

"like prodding a dead octopus"

Seems scientifically accurate.

zrrion wrote: ↑

26 Feb 2024, 18:16

The leaf spring that MY uses for membrane actuation flexes when bottoming out in a way that imparts a very unusual feeling to the key travel. This combined with the difficulty in restoring the switch makes them an unattractive switch all around.

I would also mention the kind of MY switch you used because the design changed over the generations. I think adding a section talking about the flaws of each switch design can be helpful to people such as click before actuation, actuation before the click, a harsh bottom out feel, or being too stiff to use for long periods of time.

this is a good point for sure, gen1 MY is just good IMO

"Popular opinion on MY is highly polarised between those who are right and those who are wrong."

...or..."If two experts have differing opinions at least one of them must be wrong."

Muirium wrote: ↑

27 Feb 2024, 13:08

"Popular opinion on MY is highly polarised between those who are right and those who are wrong."

Findecanor wrote: ↑

26 Feb 2024, 10:49

However, the paragraph following it: "feels fairly reasonable" is a personal opinion, and should be edited.

Be by guest

zrrion wrote: ↑

26 Feb 2024, 18:16

Citing one person's overdramatic assessment of the feel of a switch is in no way a comment of the common opinion. You'd need a much more thorough statement from a lot larger number of people to make such information relevant to a wiki page.

Problem is, how can one prove that this or that opinion represents the views of a significant amount of people, and convey that into a wiki reference? An user poll? A Google search? What about opinions from people who never even used the switch?

All I'm saying is that the personal opinion you removed and I put back in does seem fairly accurate and backed up by the opinions I've found so far whenever the switch is mentioned out there. The article has passed through a dozen DT editors since the comment was written by @Sixty in 2011 when he created the page and nobody ever since has felt the need to edit that part out. If you ask Google, people quoting that tidbit of the wiki tend to agree.

My point is that leaving that comment out for the sake of being 100% "scientific" about things would be more harmful towards the service the article provides to a newcomer than just keeping it. The lesser of two evils, if you will.

zrrion wrote: ↑

26 Feb 2024, 18:16

Tldr: The wiki isn't a popularity contest or a review site, its for reporting confirmed and well documented information. If an opinion is reported it should be thorough and be commenting on specific elements of the switch. "Switch bad" doesn't make the cut. "Switch bad because..." does.

I agree. And if 1st gen MY is better then I suggest anyone with experience with it to edit the page accordingly.

In the meantime, I added a reference to the "prodding a dead octopus" part.

tactica wrote: ↑

06 Mar 2024, 18:03

how can one prove that this or that opinion represents the views of a significant amount of people

You are aware that there's an entire field of study dedicated to statistics right? Like this isn't an insightful question that we need to hash out in this thread, it's a question anyone who's passed a statistics 101 class can tell you. I will give you a hint though, no one in statistics 101 will tell you that a quote from a single person fits the bill here.

tactica wrote:I agree. And if 1st gen MY is better then I suggest anyone with experience with it to edit the page accordingly.

I am the person with experience you're talking about here, if you agree that someone w/ experience should edit the wiki accordingly then quit undoing the changes when they actually are made lol

zrrion wrote: ↑

06 Mar 2024, 22:32

I will give you a hint though, no one in statistics 101 will tell you that a quote from a single person fits the bill here.

So, can you provide a quote proving that a majority of people think Cherry MY isn't bad and thus the article is biased? Otherwise this debate is running in circles.

The trick is not to say it is shit (which it is), but to point to source it is shit.
https://youtu.be/ugE9cl_INNc?feature=shared&t=193

tactica wrote: ↑

06 Mar 2024, 23:06

So, can you provide a quote proving that a majority of people think Cherry MY isn't bad and thus the article is biased? Otherwise this debate is running in circles.

I'll make you a deal, you do some sort of survey on the general opinion of MY and we can cite the survey's findings in the article. Doesn't matter what the findings are, assuming the survey is decent we can cite its findings. But until then no opinion on the matter satisfies the burden of proof that would be needed for an opinion to be cited in the wiki.
The OP about how you don't think opinions should be added unless they're common puts the burden of proof on showing that an opinion is common. If the burden of proof is light enough that "one guy said it in a thread once" or "a youtuber said it in a video once" then basically any uninformed slack-jawed booger-eating moron can make any wild claim about anything and that would be sufficient to just add it to the wiki. "blue alps are terrible, they might as well be linears" There we go. Without any burden of proof I am free to cite this post in the blue alps page and put "the general opinion of blue alps is negative" Obviously that's stupid as hell, but it's exactly the same thing as "MY feel like typing on wet newspaper" being cited to say that the general opinion of MY is bad. You either use a quality source when citing things on the wiki, or leave things alone.

Pictures making a perfectly scientific forum poll:

Your opinion of Cherry MY as a switch:
• MY is horrible, objectively bad, like poking especially nasty, soggy newspaper
• MY is an under appreciated gem, just as deserving of love as any other switch, you can all go to hell

But then all the trolls will come on over and spoil it and leave us back with “opinions are mixed…”

• As a professional typist who at the time was completely unaware of anything keyboard related, when I had to replace my programmable Cherry G80-2100 (MX black switches), I wondered why its successor (G81-3083 with MY switches) felt so horrible and impossible to use, and for the first time learned the difference between those switches. I was happy to discover Tipro keyboards, which also have MX switches and are programmable (even better than Cherry). No way I could use those horrible MY switches!
• When my partner, also a professional typist who also was completely unaware of anything keyboard related, decided it was a good idea after all to also use a programmable keyboard, she adopted my just discarded G81-3083 and did not understand what was supposed to be so horrible about it. Now, several years later, she stills successfully uses it as a daily driver for her professional work (and so do countless other pros, by the way).

Am I right, or is she right? I find it is not for the wiki to decide.

Muirium wrote: ↑

07 Mar 2024, 14:00

Pictures making a perfectly scientific forum poll:

Your opinion of Cherry MY as a switch:
• MY is horrible, objectively bad, like poking especially nasty, soggy newspaper
• MY is an under appreciated gem, just as deserving of love as any other switch, you can all go to hell

But then all the trolls will come on over and spoil it and leave us back with “opinions are mixed…”

Wait 'till you add in the option "I don't know; I've never tried them myself.".

kbdfr wrote: ↑

07 Mar 2024, 15:55

[...]
Am I right, or is she right? I find it is not for the wiki to decide.

Oh, that's easy to answer with the available data:
Therefore, Cherry MY switches are fine.


Let us all thank multidisciplinary knowledge.

OK, I extended wiki/Help:Contents again, now mentioning the topic of opinions, suggesting the first edit for absolute beginners as well as the reference style (I know @002 also supports named references) , and finally adding a basic Code of conduct. I hope you find it all acceptable. I know zrrion will...

Hopefully the Copyrights section grows enough that it has to be moved to a separate article soon. If someone knows a working email address to contact Daedalus, 7bit and other "old timers" who have lots of unlicensed pictures on the wiki, I'd like to know.