deskthority

I'm busy contemplating a few changes to our hosting and organisation.

Basically, when me, sixty, MrInterface and daedalus founded this site, it ended up on my server, we'd see if deskthority would catch on, and take it from there. However, we never re-evaluated that initial setup.

I'm making these discussions public in the deskthority subforum, so we can get a wide discussion with input from our members.

Considering organisation, I'd like to give you a few options. We currently have no formal ownership, and this is something that needs to be fixed. I guess the ownership is 25% for each of the four founders, but in essence I've been running and hosting things, sixty is gone, and while MrInterface and daedalus made essential contributions to kick-start the site, these were not really admin related.

So I don't think that's an option to continue. The options I have in mind are either 1) turning deskthority into a club (an association, a vereniging, a verein, like a football, bridge or stamp collectors club), where the club owns itself, or 2) a benevolent dictatorship and ownership of yours truly, which is in practice how things are run now.

I really prefer 1, for a number of reasons, such as it increases the participation & bus-factor, and no dictator can go bad. Option 2 is a fallback option, in case no one is really interesting in a club or admin duties, just interested in keyboards.

Note that with option 1, all founders have to give up ownership, and with option 2, all the others have to give it up to me. Like noted earlier, we never set the ownership formally, but this is exactly why we need to do this now. Because if there comes a situation when this is important, it doesn't work when no one knows exactly and with founders having run off. Personally I'd gladly give up ownership to the club. This has never been a commercial asset, and I don't consider it an entity which can or should be monetized. This is why a club form would seem a good fit. But if this doesn't work out, I want to make it part of my company, webwit.nl, so I can run it properly, also concerning taxes.

A club would give us an entity which doesn't fall over when something happens to one person (such as death or corruption, or just lame inactivity), could have a bank account, etc. How formal you make it depends on what we decide. We could have statutes, or we could keep it pretty informal.

Let me know what you think.

The club option sounds smart. Especially the loose and informal part. That's the culture we have here, after all.

Until reading this, I reckoned DT was your personal property anyway, and that the benign dictator role was assumed from the start. It's definitely the de facto status quo.

Making organisation a bit more transparent and official is the right idea for the long term. You are this forum's single point of failure! As in one stray shotgun pellet on target, and our goose is cooked. So yes, I'm all for the club proposal.

As long as it's as the very opposite of a rule mad circle jerk committee, which would not only be unlikely, but hardly Deskthority at all.

Option 1 seems the most sensible one to me. However, long and paralyzing membership gatherings should be avoided. Keeping things straightforward and informal is the way to go.

Hmm, I don't know, the response is kinda underwhelming. My forthcoming dictatorship is becoming palpable.

I will follow this and I appreciate that you discuss this in the open forum, but I guess this should be discussed and decided between senior members and current admins. I'm fine with both options.

If webwit wants to be the dictator he should offer us some bribe so we accept him!

Halvar wrote:I will follow this and I appreciate that you discuss this in the open forum, but I guess this should be discussed and decided between senior members and current admins.

I proposed to the current admin to take this in the open forum, for a wider discussion.

If it would help, I am willing to join a club. We should check what are the conditions to found a (Internet-Forum) club.
Of course I have nothing against a worldwide ruler in webwit.

But there are really some difficulties, we may could avoid if we have a club and not a single person responsible.

I would like to keep the actual "spirit" of DT, that is an important point for me.

There's a difference between rules and statutes. For example, the statutes could say rules aren't important but the spirit is, and the statutes make sure that doesn't change.

The problem with a club/verein is that they are designed for the old world, which is much more local. I don't care about that part of it. I care about the entity. But this means there are rules for such a format, based on the country it is founded in. In some countries lots of rules, in others almost none. But I don't know all the fine details of that.

So if we went option 1, would every current member become part of this club or is it only people who are interested? What duties does club membership entail exactly? I would be worried that admin privileges in the wrong hands in this format would cause drama, even if it is self moderating by other club members eventually. It's amazing how much a person can change if they are given even a tiny bit of power over others

This is exactly why deskthority was set up with almost no hierarchy, ranks or moderation. And this is exactly one of the few core values I think should be captured in statutes, and the kind of old world thing in clubs I'd like to avoid. I think no one is waiting for that part of a club, and it's certainly the part I don't want in a hobby, where you'd rather escape hierarchy and (the horror) management. We're just into keyboards, so this all should be facilitating and simple. I think there should be a few statutes to capture our core values. I'm thinking of a voluntary membership/donator system of say 5 or 10 euro per year, to pay for hosting and maybe fund a groupbuy or something, but not to create a hierarchy level, except for voting power. I wasn't planning any duties, except for cleaning my keyboards. We don't need meetings, we have a forum to discuss things if it's important. The members could vote for or against a big spending, or a new chairman when the old one runs under a bus, etc.

In contrast of the previous, we do need some more organized admin, but I'm seeking in that the same as in the choice for the club format: facilitating. I.e. we need a sysop. We need someone to run the finance and accounts. Etc. There are these facilitating duties and responsibilities (whether DT becomes a club or not), which don't take hours each day, but need to be done. I think that only works if it's organized in some relaxed way, because I can image someone wants to help out with system administration, but is not looking for 365x24 duties, even if it's not an everyday job. So in this example you probably need a few persons, so if one is occupied in real life, there's another.

is this the preamble of webwit departure? kidding

it is great that you are willing to share this forum with us and guarantee it a bright future. If you need any help being it financial or technical I'm ready to do my part. I can't help you with the legal part but I can work on the server if needed.

As per the statute I believe it should be very wide and "vague", you just say that we care about keyboards and we share opinions on a website.

That being said option 2 would be totally legit and a loose dictatorship would be acceptable (maybe with a back up plan).

What makes you think webwit will set up a loose dictatorship?


We should find out the country with the best club culture to found the club.

I'm okay with either one. But if the taxes work option 2 is good too...

This far the being dictator has been good!

Totally for the first option, as it's safer for the sustainability of this nice edifice.
In the bépo community, we're creating a non-profit association with a group of few people taking decisions instead of a too powerful unique president. General Assemblies are done in an IRC channel and pseudonym members are allowed. But french laws are very permissive for NPA, maybe German's or Dutch are less…

I like option 1 too, and I have no problems with option 2 should it come to that.
Whatever the decision ultimately is, I'll continue to visit DT and contribute where I can.

I am quite comfortable being a lowly member of whichever structure you all decide to go with. If the dues are reasonable I'd be happy to contribute.

My vote goes to nr. 1 because i know how much of a hassle it can be running a one man show.

When we get around to club memberships, i will be one of the first to sign up.

Owner stiil 4man holland just change admin/moderator?

Nice thread. I would prefer option 1, too.

ماء wrote:Owner stiil 4man holland just change admin/moderator?

No, owner black duck from holland only and want turn DT into official club.

Yaay! A keyboard club!

Seriously though, I like the idea of establishing a club. Spending a lot of time in circles of German hackerspaces loosely associated with the CCC I like "Vereine".

7bit wrote:

ماء wrote:Owner stiil 4man holland just change admin/moderator?

No, owner black duck from holland only and want turn DT into official club.

Is good explanation. I like DT club idea!

Yes, it's time the ducks got a club. Don't see why rabbits should get all the fun.

CeeSA wrote:[…] I would like to keep the actual "spirit" of DT, that is an important point for me.

Same here.
I would definitely join a club, even if I don't mind webwit's dictatorship.

7bit wrote:

ماء wrote:Owner stiil 4man holland just change admin/moderator?

No, owner black duck from holland only and want turn DT into official club.

, 60,mr ,daedalus? I just found out like GH

I would join the club. I think it's a good thing to spread the responsibilities to more persons.

Thanks guys. I'll pick a notary for advise tomorrow about starting a club. Searching for this stuff, I think the rules are roughly similar in the Netherlands, Germany, France, etc., and tax rules on profit roughly the same, with the exception of Switzerland. There are usually two club formats, one is less formal, but as a legal entity it is weak (founders and board members may be financially accountable), and a more formal one, where you gotta have statutes, and which is a strong legal entity. I want to go for the second one, to protect our core values the most, to be able to get a bank account, to be able to sell t-shirts or whatever to pay our bills, etc.

The most complicating factor is that we are international, and these structures are national it seems. For example, I find almost nothing about requirements for board members to live in the country of origin of the club, which would be a limitation which is not realistic for our cause. What I found at least suggests the founders must live in the specific country. I may find out it's better to start it in another country than mine. A traditional club has a board with a chairman/president, maybe a vice chairman/president, treasurer and secretary. Probably like most of you, I don't know what we need, and I'd like to keep formal roles limited, as one of our core values is we're into keyboards, not administration, so the club board structure should be facilitating. All I can think of right now to add these roles is the more modern role of technical guy, hardware/software, whatever you want to name it. I'll let you know what I find out.

Germany probably won't be the country to found a club in. It always depends on where you live, but here it's very complicated to become and stay a "eingetragener Verein". You need to have a member meeting at least yearly, where decisions are made and the new board is elected. You also need to send the protocols of member meetings to the local "Amtsgericht". So I guess you'll find a better place…

I think that's roughly the same everywhere for the formal variant. You need the official statutes and the elected board for the legal status and such. Statutes can be pretty standard (like what is the goal of the club, how many votes you need for a big decision, etc.), and added to them what we think is important. Re-election of board members after some period can be pretty boring (the same people put themselves up for re-election and no one else), but it also gives a moment for contemplation, and if someone in the board is not doing very well but won't budge, there's a mechanism to fix it. I think this is a healthy mechanism. To show you the opposite, our current admin group is an ever growing group of idlers, because no one ever quits but some do end up inactive.