Topre introducing RGB, actuation control and analog switches

[Muirium]

You wired guys have no problem then. Good for you. But the monoculture in mech keyboards for wires wires everywhere isn't healthy to their survival. Wireless is the way of the future. I don't know if you noticed, but desktops are dying (despite the fact I prefer them too), touchscreens are thriving, and laptops are rapidly losing their ports. Bluetooth is to USB what USB was to all those daft things like joystick ports that it displaced.

I'm encircled by cables just now as I use the Matias Ergo Pro with my laptop in the middle. Split keyboards need wireless twice as much!

[andrewjoy]

Desktops will always be with us, but they will move into a very niche part of the market, IT pro , creative workstation, enthusiast, gamer and so on, back to how it was in the past. Hopefully this will lead to a revival of higher quality peripherals.

For the average jo bloggs on the street all they will need soon is a phone/tablet, it will be able to stream its interface to the TV and they can go on the internet play peggel and candy crush and whatnot and so on.

For me i find wireless a total PITA , batteries , syncing and so on its all just too much!I like the idea of it but the practicality is just not for me. I want to just plug a USB cable into a thing and then the thing i plugged in works, no fuss no messing. Many i am just a relic of times past i don't know.

I got a wireless mouse once , it was supposed to be good and its very high quality. But i would have less lag with a carrier pidgin.

[Spikebolt]

I wouldn't mind an HHKB with Bluetooth as well, but only if its bateries could be recharged via USB. Don't wanna deal with AAA bateries etc etc.

[Muirium]

Exactly. Removeable batteries are a relic of a bygone age, too. Things should either charge when connected by USB (like Phosphorglow's Bluetooth Model M controller) or by induction (like my Apple Magic Mouse + Mobee Magic Charger combo). Everything else is broken by design!

I got a wireless mouse once , it was supposed to be good and its very high quality. But i would have less lag with a carrier pidgin.

That varies dramatically by mouse, and I suppose Bluetooth receiver. I'm a picky bastard but I love my Magic Mouse. The only time I noticed lag on it was when the original AA battery was running out and signal strength was so weak the connection was dropping in and out. Haven't had any of that in years with the inductive charger. I just never remembered to charge it manually before! Nowadays it sits on its charger whenever I'm not using it. So much better than pulling the bloody thing open and swapping AAs.

[Nuum]

So instead of a mouse with a cable you have a mouse without cable and an inductive charger with power cable on your desk?

[andrewjoy]

if it was hidden under the surface that would be cool yes.

EDIT

Mu , it was a logitech performance MX.

[Muirium]

So instead of a mouse with a cable you have a mouse without cable and an inductive charger with power cable on your desk?

Yes! The charger sits at the back edge of the desk, out of the way. The mouse: well I have to move that around, don't I!

[eldorange]

002, what is that black keyboard above the μTRON?

[seebart]

It's a question of which keyboard I'm using for me. With my HHKB I'd like Bluetooth. But with my SSK I need that old school fat spiral cable. Wouldn't feel right any other way.

[Muirium]

Bluetooth SSK is legend!

Related: I have several SSKs. I'm only Bluetoothening one. Those coiled cables have an appeal all their own. Which is why I got some of Cindy's IBM fresh ones. Including a long bugger I've no real use for besides looooooooooooooooooooooong.

[tlt]

Individual control of actuation point and analog keys goes hand in hand. If the hardware can handle analog control on all keys you just need a table of actuation values for each key to get the other feature. I guess they put a more powerful controller in the board. I will be interesting to see which parts of the software is in the drive and which is in the firmware. Analog keys must have a custom driver right, or are some keys going to turn up as a USB gamepad or something?

[Muirium]

Yup. Unless it's a useless fluff feature like hitting hard to CAPITALISE (please don't!) or to rrrreeeepppeeeaaattt (rreeaallyy ddoonn''tt dooo tthhatt..).

Capsense is inherently analog. Every capsense system can track keys all the way up and down. You could do a lot of interesting stuff with linear capsense, with a modern controller say on a foam and foil board. But Topre has a dome to buckle in the middle of travel, which limits things a bit. And Model F buckling spring is inherently digital, even if the capsense tracking the flippers is analogue, because those springs buckle fast! Same with beamspring before it.

Love me a bit of capsense!

[002]

002, what is that black keyboard above the μTRON?

That little keyboard is a Sun CTC SP CKU-MIN/BK. A short-throw Topre variant.

[Muirium]

Something the wiki doesn't mention: how short is the throw on these guys?

How do they feel compared to scissor switch laptop keyboards? My brother loathes my boards for their excessive travel. I reckon there's likely no real pleasing him. But data is good.

[002]

Travel: 3.0 ± 0.5mm
Actuation: 1.8 ± 0.8mm

As for feel, they are OK I guess, but nothing to write home about
I have used laptop keyboards that feel nicer, but I haven't given the short-throw Topre much use.

[hasu]

I must say it is terrible from my experience on Topre short throw.

Mine is not great condition, that being said, I couldn't bear typing with it for minutes. I need to lubricate it probably.

[002]

I have three of them. The Sun is the one in the worst condition -- the other two are basically brand new.
I think the big problem with the short-throw switch design is that it requires you strike very close to the middle of the key for it to feel decent. One of the good things about the normal Topre switch design is that you can hit the key almost anywhere and it will still smoothly go down. This is simply not the case with short-throw Topre, even on a brand new keyboard. I think you are right that lubrication would help, but I don't know if it would get it to the point where the action feels as smooth as a full-travel Topre switch.

[webwit]

Now get them to give you an exclusive (p)review keyboard.

[002]

I'll ask but I don't like my chances
I think they will all be considered prototypes. The RGB is being demonstrated with a modified Type Heaven, for example. Not sure what they have planned to demonstrate the other stuff. Maybe it will all be running from a single keyboard?

[Findecanor]

Good that they have seen the light.. This tech is possible because Topre uses conical springs. They cause the capacitative response to be linear and that makes it easier to measure the travel and set a threshold for the actuation point. This is explained in one (or several) of Topre's patents.

What this means is that we could have pressure sensitive switches.

*cough*

[*] Emulate a piano or other musical instrument

Possibly... Digital claviers measure speed of the stroke, not total travel.
There are usually two switches per key where one actuates earlier in the stroke and the time between actuations define the speed. (source).
This is similar to how a mechanical piano works - if you press a key slow enough it will not make a sound, or at least a very low one.

It all sounds pretty cool to me. I expressed my concerns about 2 and 3 and how well they would work with Topre's tactile switches. The current implementation for the actuation control and analog switches is on their existing switch design. The 30-35g Topre switch is probably the most appropriate for this new tech, but we'll have to wait and see if anything has to change in that regard...maybe a heavier spring is in order?

A regular Topre keyboard has an additional spring in the Space Bar. 30g domes and such springs would probably do.
All switches are already equipped to support such springs.

To repeat what I have been shouting for a couple of years: I would love a Topre keyboard with a force-travel curve like a stock Cherry MX Clear. Such a switch would have both tactility for typing and have some resistance that would work for analogue controls. Topre could do it if they wanted to.

I think analog is a much more interesting feature than Bluetooth. I personally don't see any interest in a Bluetooth keyboard, but that's just me.

Bluetooth and gaming are pretty much mutually exclusive unless there is a new protocol. Bluetooth uses the USB HID protocol in a way like low-speed USB - which is too slow for performance-obsessed gamers and with a limit of eight bytes per packet which would limit you to 7KRO.
I am not sure that you could do what Noppoo Choc Mini does over low-speed USB and divide up the NKRO report into multiple packets. (The problem that keyboard has with some hosts is not the multiple packets per se, but that they are described to the host in a weird way)

I wouldn't mind an HHKB with Bluetooth as well, but only if its bateries could be recharged via USB. Don't wanna deal with AAA bateries etc etc.

Rechargeable AA and AAA batteries are awesome, but they can't be charged in the devices that use them. The problem is that devices can't sense the difference between rechargeable AAA batteries and non-rechargeable AAA batteries ... and non-rechargeable batteries could explode if you put them in a charger. This would be a safety hazard, because people are stupid.

[hasu]

I think the big problem with the short-throw switch design is that it requires you strike very close to the middle of the key for it to feel decent. One of the good things about the normal Topre switch design is that you can hit the key almost anywhere and it will still smoothly go down.

This makes sense, I usually type with placing my wrists on desktop and tend to rub keys or slide finger tip on them.

[HaaTa]

Neat. Topre is gonna one-up me. Was planning on doing something like this in the future.
Will be interesting to see how they actually implement it.

Software support for analog switches is an *enormous* pain in the ass. USB HID isn't suffiicient without some fanciness or programmable controller.

[Hak Foo]

Could variable acutation be done by changing the threshold for "closed" in the controller? Then all you need is a means of passing "change level" to the controller-- either a hotkey or some programmable channel.

[Muirium]

Yes. You can see how simple the concept is on the Knobforce! I'm hoping for a smart set of key combos, to alter it across the board and on invidual keys. While hoping against a Windows app! I've had such trouble with those (needing to visit friends and make strange requests for starters!) that they rendered Tipro and Access keyboards useless for me.

Ditto for lighting. Doesn't everyone already do it via key combos?

But analog… hmm. This one I wonder about. And fear. It really needs a driver. Could this really be a Windows exclusive feature? And worse, a Windows only keyboard?

[Mal-2]

You wired guys have no problem then. Good for you. But the monoculture in mech keyboards for wires wires everywhere isn't healthy to their survival. Wireless is the way of the future.

Have I got just the thing for you.

Seriously though they seem ripe for cannibalizing, to add Bluetooth to a real keyboard.

[Mal-2]

Neat. Topre is gonna one-up me. Was planning on doing something like this in the future.
Will be interesting to see how they actually implement it.

Software support for analog switches is an *enormous* pain in the ass. USB HID isn't suffiicient without some fanciness or programmable controller.

Here's an interface that's ubiquitous and well-suited for the purpose. OS support already exists. You'd just need to know which key number translates to which scancode, and Bob's your uncle.

[Muirium]

But then what? Do many games allow you to control them by midi keyboard?

Musicians are outnumbered by gamers. And keyboardists tend to be just as snobby about their gear as we are about ours!

Correct answers to "best keyboards, computer and musical" are: Topre and Nord. I'd much rather play piano on a Nord, even than a Realforce. But then again a Nord's no good for typing. Different things!

[chzel]

Yeah, OS support is entirely different than application support.

[zts]

IMO, the priority for Topre is some type of wireless/bluetooth especially for the "smaller" members of Topre family (HHKB, FC660C since these are often attached to laptops, tablets. On RF TKL, I'd rather focus on fixing some Mac incompatibilities before messing with the almost perfect Topre boards. Personally I don't mind wires, but it would be nice not to have a wire between a small laptop and keyboard.

[Spikebolt]

I wouldn't mind an HHKB with Bluetooth as well, but only if its bateries could be recharged via USB. Don't wanna deal with AAA bateries etc etc.

Rechargeable AA and AAA batteries are awesome, but they can't be charged in the devices that use them. The problem is that devices can't sense the difference between rechargeable AAA batteries and non-rechargeable AAA batteries ... and non-rechargeable batteries could explode if you put them in a charger. This would be a safety hazard, because people are stupid.

Well, here in Portugal our phones (not mobile phones, the portable ones you use at home) all have use rechargeable AAA batteries. I don't think it's that big of issue but then again I never swap the batteries on my phone.

An alternative would be using a mobile phone battery techology (can't remember the name ), though it would be more expensive.