deskthority

FYI keyboards I had: Das Keyboard browns, Truly Ergonomic browns, cm blues, NovaTouch TKL, Leopold tenkeyless (current).


After trying "NovaTouch TKL" for about a week, I decided I wanted something that feels less like "rubber", and if I am paying $200 it better be something special. So I bought the Ergo Pro. Here are some of my initial thoughts after about a week's use at work.



1. The keyboard layout feels immediately similar to "TrulyErgonomic" (which is a horrible keyboard IMO - but that's a whole other post), but unlike TE it has the following which make it good, instead of bad: 1. Split. 2. BIG space bars that don't hurt your fingers. 3. Standard-ish layout (more on it later).
2. The tent positioning is my favorite (where you extends the legs in the middle to make the keyboard stand like a tent).


3. The keyboard feels significantly different from rubber (unlike the NovaTouch TKL)
4. Matias switches. I think the "feel" of the matias switches is what I expected NovaTouch to feel like. The keys have just the right amount of "spring" to them. And they do feel tactile (if this is what tactile feels like). Because after using brown and blue I couldn't tell you what "tactile" was...
5. The keys are quite - much quieter than brown. Which I don't mind! I thought I liked the clicky keyboards, but I really only wanted the tactile feedback. Matias keys feel like my fingers are jumping from key to key, without the need for "sound" to verify that I clicked something.
6. The BIG ctrl, and BIG space are better than on any STANDARD keyboard imo, and this is probably the #3 reason you should consider this keyboard (even if you don't care for ergonomics). #2 of course are the switches, and #1 of course is the split.





7. The layout of "home/end/pgup/pgdown" is bad and good: I am still missing "end" and pressing "page down" when coding.



However, on the positive side, it is REALLY comfortable to Page Up and Page Down when reading the web. The downsides are NOT enough to deter me from using the keyboard.



8. Another inconvenience of removing the dedicated "home/end/insert/delete/pgup/pgdown" block is that the "DEL" key is now all the way UP IN THE RIGHT. Strangely enough this is not as uncomfortable as the "end/pgdown" problem.



9. The dedicated keys on the left "undo,cut,copy,paste" and the lonely "fn" - I find useless. I've not used them yet.
10. The split - very comfortable. I especially like moving JUST HALF OF THE KEYBOARD if I need to eat/drink coffee or use a laptop. Also, it looks cool/weird and I've yet to get used to it. I always type with the two halves spread apart (like in first photo of this post - but also much further sometimes).





11. ESC key is pretty far left and up, but not much of a problem (in the photo I'm exaggerating!).



12. I've discovered that I press the space with only my left thumb. (The split makes it apparent - and I am going to make a conscious effort to use thumbs alternatively).

13. Pleased with delivery speed (I'm in Canada - just 2 days!) and the service from Matias. Better than any other keyboard company so far.

14. Definitely will need 2 of these if you work - one at work and one at home. Coming home to brown switches and a non-split board is noticeable (sometimes good, sometimes bad).

15. I can see myself either really liking it - or really hating it (like the Truly Ergonomic one, which just kept getting more frustrating after each week). However, the layout on Ergo Pro is standard, and immediately familiar - so you won't need any time to type on it.

Thanks for the great review.

There were pictures?

Having used and reviewed the Ergo Pro myself, I must disagree about the switches. Those Matias Quiet Clicks are easily the most miserable Alps I've ever tried. They have none of the subtle old school Alps richness of creams or even whites. They feel like the MX clears of the Alps world. Blech! But at least they're not those pointlessly confusing MX browns.

The rest of the board is pretty good. Commendably solid in something so modern. But the caps also let it down. Nothing much you can do about either the custom caps or the switches. Other than curse the day you ever discovered there were better vintage keyboards!

If ergo is the overriding factor: the Ergo Pro wins. If other things matter just as much, well, things get mighty complex.

Mu, you always compare older / not in production switches to current offerings. Are there any vintage split ergo boards that also have the switches you advocate so hard for?

Sure there is. This one:



I'm less "advocating hard" for old Alps switches as I am criticising Matias modern clones. The switches in the Ergo Pro are really quite painfully bad. At that price, they are a real letdown and ruin the keyboard. Matias could do so much better.

I gotcha, it just seemed like a hipster / curmudgeon 'all the old stuff is better' sort of rant. Having used other Matias switches, which one would you think would make it more viable as an option. If any!

Keyboards are one of the very few places in tech where the old stuff isn't hideously obsolete and utterly useless.

Some curmudgeon I make!

Muirium wrote: ↑Keyboards are one of the very few places in tech where the old stuff isn't hideously obsolete and utterly useless.

Some curmudgeon I make!

True, unless your a looney like me and go back far enough for the hobby's sake:

That's why I like vintage boards so. Once converted, they're bang up to date. Keyboards are essentially simple things, doing the same essential work today as they've done for several decades. Vintage isn't a hindrance the way trying to use junk like an 80s mouse is, or a 90s display. Argh!

As for best Matias switches: I'm guessing the linears. Like MX, there's less to go wrong! Matias linears are damped, right? I can't remember. But if they aren't, they made another unforced error.

Perhaps some would say that this is not saying much, but in defense of Matias switches, I find that any of the Matias line is better than any Cherry mx.

I have tried the KBP V60 with Matias Linear (yes, they are damped), Quiet, and Click variants. My favorite is the Matias Click (sometimes called Tactile, but the Quiet and Click are both tactile). I am typing this with a V60MTS-C outfitted with dye-sub PBT alphas from an IBM 5140 and mods plus spacebar from Matias. The keyboard is perhaps the loudest one I own, but the combined pronounced auditory and tactile feedback helps me type quickly and accurately with this board.

I haven't enjoyed the success that others report with vintage Alps boards, perhaps owing to factors other than the switches themselves. For example, I have a SIIG 84 with Monterey blues that is hampered by an Enter key that binds unless struck dead center. I also have an Apple Extended Keyboard with Orange Alps, but they feel scratchy to me -- perhaps they need to be dismantled and cleaned. I've had the best luck with boards in excellent shape that have complicated white Alps switches.

Regarding mx, although I don't hold out much hope of their dislodging IBM Model F or Topre switches from the top spots in my own rankings, I have heard good things about the latest clones, the purple Zealios, which apparently are smoother and lighter versions of mx clears, and clear Zealois, which are said to be smoother versions of mx linear switches.

Although we might wish that Matias had chosen to replicate complicated blue Alps or even complicated white Alps, no other company has tried to keep Alps switches alive. Matias is the only show in town for new Alps-type switches, and I think that the Tactile/Click version is not bad -- and much better than any Cherry mx.

Not into the linears, then, Hyper? I'm pretty confident those are the ones I'd like. Damping is good. And linear is easier to get right. Being an IBM and Topre man as well, I've become very picky about tactile bumps. Blue Alps and Montereys get it just right, among clicky Alps mounts switches, while damped creams are a great treat in good condition. Admirably quiet. Much like the Ergo Pro. So much better than any MX board in the noise cancelling department. Right up there with Topre Type-S.

How much is that ergonomic topre cost? and is it still on sale? I mean in japan

bocahgundul wrote: ↑How much is that ergonomic topre cost? and is it still on sale? I mean in japan

Yes, it is still on sale for mere ￥ 53,537 (about 410 € at the current exchange rate).

Personally, I was wholly underwhelmed by the Matias Quiet Click switches that I had tried, and I'm of the opinion that there's quite a few rubber dome boards that are better to type on.

However, I quite like the Matias Clicks, and you could swap the guts of those switches into an Ergo Pro's switches. No, they're not as good as vintage complicated Alps, but they're still quite good.

@Muirium: In theory, I ought to prefer linear mx-type switches, because all of these are essentially Hookean. The mx variants achieve tactility and clickiness by grafting bumps onto the stem and adding a clicker. These add-ons are not integral parts of the mechanism as they are in, e.g., the buckling springs in IBM switches or the collapsing domes in Topre capacitive switches. Nevertheless, when I am using mx, I feel the need for some tactile/auditory feedback, even if these things are produced in an artificial way. Perhaps if I had lubed reds or vintage blacks I would prefer the pure linear experience over the grit and crinkle of the other colors of cherries.

I like Matias quiet switches much better than any MX switch except possibly some lubed and spring-swapped “vintage” MX black switches in a fancy Korean aluminum chassis I tried at a meetup one time. In particular, they’re way nicer than MX brown or clear, even when the MX switches have been lubed and modified.

I also like Matias quiet switches much better than Topre.

I also like Matias them better than late-model dampened Alps switches, the no-slits kind with white sliders.

I also like them switches better than dampened tactile white Omron B3G-S switches.

I also like them better than dampened tactile Mitsumi switches of the type found in some AEK IIs.

For me, they’re about on par with dampened cream Alps switches, or tactile green Alps switches.

I don’t like them as much as orange Alps switches.

YMMV.

Muirium wrote: ↑As for best Matias switches: I'm guessing the linears. Like MX, there's less to go wrong! Matias linears are damped, right? I can't remember. But if they aren't, they made another unforced error.

Yes, the linear switches are damped.

drozzy wrote: ↑6. The BIG ctrl, and BIG space are better than on any STANDARD keyboard imo, and this is probably the #3 reason you should consider this keyboard (even if you don't care for ergonomics).

++

2.5x1.5 would be a good size for spacebars even on “standard” one-piece keyboards, along the lines of:

So there you are jacobolus.

Haven't seen you post for a while on gh.

I reiterate my opposition to 1.5x or 2x tall keys. These are very unnecessary because they are located where thumbs or fingers have to curl to reach. Being tall won't help you reach these keys. Not to mention, impossible to get keycaps for.

On a standard keyboard, the spacebar is not naturally under the resting position of the hand when the fingers are near the home position and the hand is in a relaxed position.

Here’s a picture showing all the keys on a standard keyboard which are awkward to reach for someone with medium sized hands. Purple = slightly awkward, red = very awkward, blue dots = approximate home finger positions for a relaxed hand:


If you make the bottom row wider (or leave it 1u wide but move it .5u closer to the body), you can keep your hand in a more neutral posture while pressing the spacebar.