deskthority

I just got my Poker II today. ISO, MX Red, green backlit.

A few initial observations:

The switches feel linear. I'm now wondering if the pair of springs under each key in my Oriental Tech OK-100M keyboard (return spring plus membrane pressure spring) makes that switch "bi-linear": the switch feels lighter until half-travel, then stiffer from there down to full-travel. Simple coin stacking gives me around 40–50 g for the Poker II, and 45–50 g for the OK-100 M, i.e. the OK-100M is definitely short of the intended 60 cN, although it is only claimed to be 60±20 cN! Those switches definitely feel nothing like MX Red. My preference would be MX Red by a clear margin.

The keyboard is really quiet. If you want something small for use in an office, this will do you nicely. It has the sharp, precise clack sound that you would expect from plate-mounted Cherry switches, but the sound is just a wee bit softer and slightly higher pitch. More importantly, the Cherry stabilisers offer a drastic reduction in sound compared to a Majestouch 1. The overall effect is really pleasant. You get to retain the delightfully sharp sound of a undamped Cherry switch, without the same noise level. Whether you can achieve this state of perfection in a full-size keyboard, I do not know.

Cherry stabilisers ... I see what people mean now about the "mushy" feeling of Cherry stabilisers. On a linear keyboard it just feels like the stabilised keys (particularly backspace and right shift) are heavier weighted. Not a huge deal honestly.

That PN key! Argh! There's a PN key next to FN, and I keep mistaking it for FN! For what little use PN is, it seems to me to be a complete waste of a key.[/b]

As a keyboard, it feels like a grown man trying to balance on a six-year-old's bicycle: it feels like I'm completely overhanging it to the point that it disappears. It's a weird sensation. It also brings home just how often I try to use the keyboard with one hand, e.g. I found that I couldn't delete something while holding a drink: I can't press Del with one hand! [Edit: yes I can; it's the arrows I can't press with one hand, and I forget what I had been trying to do] The Twister-esque hand contortions needed to hit common keys, and having to scrutinise the dim front printing (that evades the backlighting) trying to figure out where they put Home, End etc, is just down to practice, although if you are a vim user, this will be entirely of no consequence.

The instruction leaflet may as well be written in Chinese for the amount of sense it makes.

Overall though, it feels rock solid, it's got a great sound, and MX Red switches are as good as I was expecting. It's a really nice product. I just think that TKL is probably more where I want to be aiming.

What I'll do with it, I have no idea. I might use it at home where a) I have so little space on my desk, and b) I can afford to spend all day gawking at the stupid thing wondering where the keys are, and trying to fathom out which fifteen keys I have to press and in what order, to get ctrl+shift+left (for word replacement). I am an old dog ;-)

(Note that running the backlight on max will destroy your retinas, although it does help finding the Home key ;-)

Interestingly, it is completely unbranded.

[Edit 2: I did at one stage end up with A and S (only) behaving as if Fn were held. Rebooting it cleared that up.]

[Edit 3: Fn+space does that, apparently. User error!]

Pn is for the programmable function layer. I don't have a Poker II so I don't know the details, but I wouldn't be surprised if you can add a few basic macros (as I vaguely remember seeing Ducky Nordic do this in his video demo of his Ducky Mini version of the ISO Poker II) such as Shift+Ctrl+Left on Pn + whatever left arrow is.

As for reds and Cherry stabs: I'm new to both, too, and it's an interesting combination. My Ducky Shine 3 TKL is nice and light and linear, with stabs whose sound I prefer, but which seem to be on the edge of being too harsh for reds to really handle. But like reds' inherent scratchiness, it's something I only notice when looking for it, pressing things ever so slowly. I'm a buckling spring and greens guy. All I really get in practice is the nicer sounding, less in your face, stabs.

Pretty unfair comparison as the OK-100M is the most shittiest board I've ever tested.
It is worse than almost every rubberdome keyboard I tested. Even the dead octopus of Cherry MY boards gives a cheerful lively companion in comparison to the wringing wet newspaper the OK-100M is. The only reason to buy such a shitty board is the rather nice set of ALPS compatible doubleshot caps (Taiwan Tai-Hao as I learned from you afair) which seem to come surprisingly often with second language padprinted legends Maybe one of the retaining springs is needful when you lost yours retaining the spacebar of a random ALPS board. But that is about the pros of the OK-100M.

Thanks for the entertaining review, enjoyed reading it...

Oriental Tech "linears" (which now I appear to need a new name for) actually aren't bad, but they rattle a lot; it was the OK-100M that convinced me that MX red probably isn't anywhere near as bad as I thought. I expected MX Red to be really limp, but the lack of tactility makes it a bit stiffer than brown, as there's no drop in the force curve. Yes it's got the same vibratey feel as Oriental Tech and Xiang Min switches, but in normal typing you don't notice. I've decided that MX Red is a nice switch.

My objection to the OK-100M (and it's from Ascaii, so it may be the same keyboard) is simply that it's so badly made, with keys that jam, and that the controller ghosts, limiting your WPM severely. It's a truly terrible keyboard, but the switches feel pretty decent. (I've also busted the matrix apparently — it was working last time I used it, though.)

Murium: I don't plan to program my Poker II. Nor do I plan to remap any keys, as I always find that by the time I'm annoyed enough to remap something (e.g. swap look up vs look down), the original assignments have started taking root and then I have no idea what to press!

I just thought I'd give it a go. I can see why Cherry went for transparent switches: current Cherry MX backlighting looks utterly rubbish. Not unless you capitalise with a "hif" key and remove mistakes with a "ksp" key. And you never type digits, only symbols. (Transparent switches would also illuminate the front legends to remind me of the mappings.)

You've a good point about programmability. I try to keep it consistent between all of my keyboards, or otherwise I'd get hopelessly confused too. Much easier said when running a Soarer converter or controller in all of them, of course, rather than relying on each manufacturer's ideas about what's possible and what's not. Which in IBM's case is "dick".

I bought my OK-100M keyboard NOS, so i can blame noone but the manufacturer. All what you said is true.
Regarding the backlit keys on the Poker: I guess all the manufacturers just don't care.
If someone really tries to get it right, it even is possible with the current technology, you just have to use a certain lettering: http://codekeyboards.com/galleria/9.jpg
Doesn't solve the problem of cheap painted caps which will start to get backlit dimples fast...

LEDs have to be in the caps, or ultimately on the caps, as the legends. All we get for now is this:

The Poker II ISO comes with RGB modifier keycaps. Except a) they're blank, instead of designed for backlit keyboards, and b) ANSI, so left shift doesn't fit. They're also a washed out colour, like they've been through the washing machine too many times. Pre-worn jeans come to keycaps.

As for the Code, I want one, but they don't have any with clears, and they don't sell them with reds at all.

ANSI extras with an ISO keyboard? How thoughtful!

If they had made the same mistake for ANSI users, the web would be boiling with complaints about "factory rejects" winding up in the box.

Another oddity is that, if you hit Fn+RCtrl by mistake (when trying to navigate with ctrl+arrows) the backlighting goes off and space starts flashing. You've entered programming mode, and then you have to sit and wait for it to exit or locate the manual; it's easier to wait a few seconds for it to give up. Whe programming mode exits, the backlighting does NOT come back on! You have to re-enable it manually.

(Also, Fn + an unbound key = that key, instead of doing nothing. Pn + unbound key is the same. I imagine that you would feel safer if the keyboard tried to avoid unwanted keystrokes when trying to get your head around this contraption.)

I've taken a few photos, but my camera is not playing the dynamic range game today, so I've given up. If you want photos on the wiki of the Poker II lit up, an MX Red switch with LED fitted, LED in switch illuminated etc, you'll have to jolly well do it yourself. Even getting a photo of the USB socket was pretty much impossible.

I've not given up with it yet, though. Whether I'll figure it out before it goes out the window, I don't know. Is there anything else out there that feels and sounds the same (plate mounted MX Red with that same soft, precise sound), but ISO TKL?

An ISO Ducky TKL? Has the advantage for you of zero programability!

I quite like it. Even given all the yellow.
http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t7130.html

You'd like the Poker II UK ISO — it's got a vestigial μ key on it. (Programming it to actually type μ would be more interesting …)

The LCD on my camera exaggerates intensity, and more photos were usable than I was expecting. (I always struggle with black keyboards, but we're now on the Poker II with not one single photo of the original Poker on the wiki yet, so I may as well put SOMETHING up.)

You reckon a Ducky would have the same quiet sound across all the keys? The Poker II lacks the depth and resonance of a Filco keyboard.

Not sure a banana keyboard is my thing, nor are red plates.

BTW, I am now more convinced than ever that the Realforce keyboards are charcoal, not black. Compared with my Poker II it looks even more grey than it did compared to the Filco.

Edit: I've added a few lousy photos here: [wiki]KBC Poker II[/wiki]

FWIW, I have also written it up in more detail on the wiki, including nuances of operation that the Engrish leaflet (mis-described as a "manual") leaves you to figure out by accident.

I need to take a photo of way Caps Lock has two LEDs. There's probably one or two other things to snap, including the inside of a keycap.

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Not sure a banana keyboard is my thing, nor are red plates.

They also come in sensible colours…

Yellow was not my choice of board (it was top prize in Ducky Nordic's first DT contest) but it's definitely grown on me. The red plate really looks sharp, and I've a set of red Round 5s in store for it. The devil's underglow backlight ought to look quite the part.

Backlighting is my only real disappointment. The coverage from a standard MX switch's LED mount is crap, and the handful of backlight compatible caps I got with the otherwise blank board (just WASD) feel slick and skinny, in a bad way. I much prefer the thick PBT blanks. But the backlight is spectacularly pointless without legends.

Vestigial µ… I'd be jealous if it actually got any light. We really need better lighting in mechanicals. They're shite compared to a decent backlit laptop keyboard in that one respect.

One of the few things that should actually be all yellow is the NMT …

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:it's the arrows I can't press with one hand, and I forget what I had been trying to do

That's exactly why I let mine go (and for the too noisy blue switches it had but if it wasn't for the arrow keys, I could have tried to stand them a bit longer). The Poker II made me realize how much I use the arrow keys, and as much I expect to use them with one hand only.

You can always use the trick of locking the arrow keys (left shift + space bar if memory serves) but yeah... cumbersome.

I use arrow keys extensively on my 60%. The key is to put them where the HHKB does: on the right. I typically hold mods with my left hand and hit arrows with my right (thanks to traditional layouts). While I also have arrows on ESDF, and have a function key on both sides, right handed arrow use runs deep. WASD or ESDF only arrows just wouldn't cut it for me either.

The lack of real programmability strikes again!

Muirium wrote:Real programmability strikes again!

Stop it, you'll make me regret having sold my programmable Polker II

I guess I'm too new to mechanical keyboards, I haven't even thought about programming the arrow keys to the right.

The trick is to follow the HHKB's lead:



Note those arrows. Absolutely brilliant! Its designer, Japanese computing legend Eiiti Wada, put a lot of work into it and pulled off some amazing tricks.

The key is indeed the Fn key at the right of right Shift. Why do we have so large a cap there anyway? 2.75 units is wasteful, and 1.75 is still a fine size for Shift, while enabling the perfect pinkie-activated function layer. Move your right hand over so your forefinger dances between ; and ' (for left and right), and [ and / (for up and down) and there you have it: the arrow cluster that's just as easy to use as the traditional dedicated inverted T, and is closer to home row too!

Another great trick is putting Backspace a row down, so you can jump to it easier while opening up the top row for an extra key. Backspace / Delete is far more useful a key than \ and makes a better pair with Return, I think, too. Indeed, I took all these innovations and put them straight on my custom 60% with full programmability (thanks to a Teensy running everything inside):


There, I can rest easy. My need to show it off today is achieved!

Nice reply Muirium,

This HHKB design looks indeed well thought of. As a matter of fact, before I bought my first mechanical keyboard, I first considered buying the HHKB just because I found it to be cute (talk about a critical buying process) but as I had trouble swallowing the price tag for a keyboard, I finally went for the Poker II with PBT caps as it looked roughly the same to my newbie eyes.

Now that you made it clear that these are indeed two very different boards, I might reconsider and start saving my cents.

Yup, very very different. The HHKB also has much nicer caps. White PBT with black dyesub Helvetica legends. Like my beloved IBM!

If this is so well thought through, why is the arrow cluster not on the home position?

I can't stand HJKL arrows, personally, but you're right in the sense that the HHKB is even less customisable than the Poker II. The HHKB isn't programmable at all. That and its lack of Bluetooth are my two gripes about it. A short list compared to every other commercially available keyboard!

My custom, meanwhile, can have its whole layout, layers and macros updated live. A feature I've used extensively. Can't beat full programmability. Although I don't expect any manufacturer to embrace Soarer's command line tools anytime soon!

HJKL? I would find ESDF or IJKL more obvious.
I mean sure, I have a lot of experience with vim so I don't mind but it wouldn't have been my first suggestion.

IJKL and ESDF arrows are awesome, all of my programamable boards have them. I have the left FN key activate the IJKL and the right FN key activate the ESDF. Try as I might I can't get used to the HHKB arrows, having to move your whole hand to the right to move the cursor around feels like far too much effort.

Personally, my hangups are hitting Pn instead of Fn (just out of instinct, it seems), and because ^A is home in *NIX and IOS, I keep pressing Fn+A for home when Fn+A is left! However, I have not quit yet.

guillaume kuster wrote:

Muirium wrote:Real programmability strikes again!

Stop it, you'll make me regret having sold my programmable Polker II ;)

The Poker II is programmable, but not in the way that you think. The keyboard has the following layers:

• Normal — keys behave as normal
• Fn — built-in overlays and control, e.g. F1-F12, arrows, backlight control etc
• Pn — programmable bindings
• Fn+Pn — second layer programmable bindings

You can only program the Pn and Fn+Pn layers. That is, I can program Pn+A and Pn+Fn+A, but I cannot program A or Fn+A. Modifiers cannot be used in bindings, e.g. trying to program Pn+Shift+A will instead program Pn+Shift, which does not behave as shift in the Pn layer.

In other words, it's a universal macro keyboard. I can for example program Pn+L for Windows+L (for convenience) and Pn+Fn+L to the sequence { Windows+L, Fn+V } (lock PC and shut off the backlight), but you cannot convert the keyboard into (for example) Colemak or AZERTY. Fn+RShift puts the keyboard in Pn mode (locks it to the Pn layer), but Pn mode ignores modifiers. If I reprogram A to Q and move into Pn mode (Fn+RCtrl, A, Q, Pn, Fn+RCtrl, Fn+RShift) then pressing A will type q, but Shift+A will still type q. Pn mode is purely for keyboard macros.

So Muirium is correct. The keyboard is programmable, but not to the extent that most people here would expect to see.

Personally this is not an issue, but for anyone wanting a portable keyboard that retains a custom mapping (e.g. Colemak or Bépo), it's not going to be of any use.

That's actually not true Daniel, at least not for the Poker II I had.

Maybe things have changed a bit between the ANSI I had and your ISO model, but as you'll see in the attached manual you can access your programmed layer by hitting Right shift and Fn.
By doing so, and as I used to switch from a mac to several work PCs (for which I couldn't install software layouts) constantly, I was able to program the AZERTY mac layout in the program layer. This allowed me not getting irritated by the subtle changes between french mac and french Windows layouts. I just had to hit Right shift and Fn and the Poker II would do the work for me.

So you can actually program a Dvorak or Colemak layout into the memory of this board.

HzFaq wrote:IJKL and ESDF arrows are awesome, all of my programamable boards have them. I have the left FN key activate the IJKL and the right FN key activate the ESDF. Try as I might I can't get used to the HHKB arrows, having to move your whole hand to the right to move the cursor around feels like far too much effort.

Well, as it happens, been there and done that. Note the ESDF cluster, as well as HHKB arrows, and a bonus cheaty right hand corner inverted T of arrow keys on the mods! I've actually got three cursor blocks to choose from.



I planned all this out before I made the board. Naturally, I pulled back a bit and only really use two extra layers in practice. The first one and a merger of the rest.

http://deskthority.net/post113751.html#p113751

The HHKB arrows are my favourites after lots of experimentation. ESDF does make sense, but my right hand is pretty determined that it's in charge of arrows, like it or not! IJKL overlaps the extended HHKB set, so I've not tried it. Besides, I like pressing the Fn key with my right hand too (so my left hand is hitting mods just like on a full size keyboard, as I use them extensively), and HHKB style lets me do this without pinkie gymnastics.

I'm biased. I've trained with HHKB arrows for ages now, ever since I got my XT. It has a mental layout, but one bonus is the presence of Print Screen right where HHKB Fn should be. Tada! Straight into Soarer's Converter.

guillaume kuster wrote:That's actually not true Daniel, at least not for the Poker II I had.

Well it's certainly true of mine: if you actually read what I wrote, I have explained clearly how mine handles Pn mode.

Interestingly I just tried to hit Ctrl+Z in Pn mode, and all I got was a z: Ctrl is ignored in Pn mode just as Shift is. Pn mode on my Poker II does not do what you claim; it is nothing more than a universal macro layer.

ANSI and ISO are not sufficiently different as to warrant such a drastic change to the firmware (or any change), which suggests that there is more than one firmware version, and presumably (as surely they would not go backwards) the developer must have corrected this limitation.