F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

Gurbsordidity unfortunately these keyboards do get bounced around in shipping. Usually it's best to inspect the keyboard before installing all the keys. If a spring is not visible that should be an issue (outside of the stabilized barrels for the layout you selected, which should have no springs). In your case you should remove all the keys to open up the keyboard as shown in the video in the manual on the project web site. Then you can move the flipper with spring into place. This happens often and the PCB does not get damaged unless you fish around in there with a sharp object to try to move it into place.

You mention the expense of tools, however all you need are lockjaw pliers, which cost about $10 to $20. No other tools are needed. It's great to be able to have the tools to maintain and clean your keyboard for many years to come. A cheap $10 to $20 soldering kit wouldn't hurt either, just to have for various electronics. Do not be afraid to follow the manual and take apart your Model F keyboard.

For a more advanced closing technique, it seems like the clamps + bar clamp method provides a good, but more costly, alternative though.

Back maybe 10 years ago my monitor had a defective capacitor issue present on many monitors at the time, and I soldered replacement caps and that fixed the issue.

[Ellipse]

Also we have photos of two variations today: the compact cases, both regular gray and black case colors, with the 60% dark gray printed keys and also the standard pearl/pebble printed keys.

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[antiphase]

Received my F62 a couple of days ago, and after the apparently entirely standard fight with using Microchip studio/QMK/VIA/etc. for the first time (which is still a pretty bad experience for n00bs despite the additional videos to sit through fwiw), it seems to be mostly pretty good and a pleasure to type on.

One problem I'm noticing with my unit is that the right Shift key often doesn't register during faster typing at what is still the pretty sedate pace I can usually manage. The signal level in the pandrew utility looks fine and similar to all the other keys, i've had the keycap off and on a few times without it making any difference and using it slowly and deliberately it works every single time so it doesn't seem like a hardware fault (unless mashing the key a bit harder is making a difference). Other keys and modifiers seem fine and reliable.

Has anyone has ever seen this before, before I start grinding through the 300 page manual and taking the thing apart?

[Ellipse]

Today is the public launch of the Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards Project!

This was designed to be announced after the new Model F project ended but there was another project in the works to reproduce the beam spring module exactly (good for the purposes of spare parts for the original keyboards), so I thought it would be a good time to post. My modules are not backwards compatible with the original IBM beam spring keyboards. They have been redesigned to be used with Cherry MX type keys natively and to remove all of the wasted space in the modules and in the beam spring cases, while maintaining 100% original key travel and the same exact specifications for the fly plates, beam module footprint, etc.

For now you should check out the photos on the thread linked to below and sign up on the interest form if interested.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... p=sf_link

Please keep all beam spring discussion on this separate thread only so as not to add confusion to this current thread.

Details on the features and pricing are in this separate thread:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=26174&p=491823

Important note: To repeat what I posted on that thread, the new beam springs don't ship and are not a focus until I've sent out the new Model F Keyboards. The Model F project was not delayed to finish these beam spring keyboards. More details are in the above thread.

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[nickg]

Are there any pics of the f77 in the classic baige case for f66 in industrial? I'm considering buying a spare case and possibly an f66 this winter

[Ellipse]

nickg please feel free to check the imgur album linked to on each of the product pages (and also below). I posted photos of the various keyboard variations all in that album which is updated as new photos come in.

https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

[darkcruix]

I wanted to post the update to the Model F Technical Manual here as well ...

https://www.bucklingspring.com
I have re-written it so it has a print and digital (viewing) version. Both versions are not only different in size but also in its appearance. For example, the digital version has no 90 degree rotated tables or drawings, as you can easily zoom in to your needs, I also optimized every photo for sRGB instead of printing colors. Tables have been re-created for each variant; drawings went through the same exercise.
Finally, I have re-drawn nearly all illustrations that previously used PNG or JPG files. These are now SVG, EPS, or PDF line art graphics.

https://www.bucklingspring.com/download ... reference/
https://www.bucklingspring.com/download ... draft-0-6/

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[goofy9x]

I wanted to post the update to the Model F Technical Manual here as well ...

https://www.bucklingspring.com
I have re-written it so it has a print and digital (viewing) version. Both versions are not only different in size but also in its appearance. For example, the digital version has no 90 degree rotated tables or drawings, as you can easily zoom in to your needs, I also optimized every photo for sRGB instead of printing colors. Tables have been re-created for each variant; drawings went through the same exercise.
Finally, I have re-drawn nearly all illustrations that previously used PNG or JPG files. These are now SVG, EPS, or PDF line art graphics.

https://www.bucklingspring.com/download ... reference/
https://www.bucklingspring.com/download ... draft-0-6/

Thank you for your hard work. I find the manual extremely useful.

[sedevidi]

Thank you for your hard work. I find the manual extremely useful.

Ditto. I also find the digital version way easier to handle on the screen, due to much lower byte size.
Now, I need my keyboard...

[goofy9x]

How do you guys bring the F with you? I'm afraid of some bad effects on the springs if directly carrying the keyboard in backpack.

[wobbled]

How do you guys bring the F with you? I'm afraid of some bad effects on the springs if directly carrying the keyboard in backpack.

Neoprene laptop sleeve. Stuff it with some bubblewrap if you're extra paranoid. Never had a problem.

[goofy9x]

How do you guys bring the F with you? I'm afraid of some bad effects on the springs if directly carrying the keyboard in backpack.

Neoprene laptop sleeve. Stuff it with some bubblewrap if you're extra paranoid. Never had a problem.

Thank you Seeing all the problems caused during transport gives me anxiety.

[wobbled]

How do you guys bring the F with you? I'm afraid of some bad effects on the springs if directly carrying the keyboard in backpack.

Neoprene laptop sleeve. Stuff it with some bubblewrap if you're extra paranoid. Never had a problem.

Thank you Seeing all the problems caused during transport gives me anxiety.

No worries, and yes screwing up a board in transit isn't unheard of, but even then those people should be able to fix their problems pretty easily. Replacing a spring on a Model F is a 2 minute job if you've mastered the tooth pick method
That's the beauty of these boards - easily repairable.

[DrivenKeys]

I wanted to post the update to the Model F Technical Manual here as well ...

https://www.bucklingspring.com

Thank you! This is awesome, nicely wrapped just as I'm getting around to programming my f77. Very nice!

[cloudhax]

after some UPS delay I got my new model F77 today. it is beautiful and fantastic. thank you so much for keeping this keyboard alive

[evoman]

This is probably a really naive question, but I have gotten lost in keeping up with the progress reports here. Is there any way to know roughly when an order will be shipped? I cannot remember the last shipping update I received, and I want to make sure I know approximately when the keyboard will go out so I can make sure the person receiving it is aware it is coming (in this case, it is not shipping directly to me). I realise I could send this query as a direct message, but I figured the info might be useful to others in a similar position. Thanks.

[goofy9x]

This is probably a really naive question, but I have gotten lost in keeping up with the progress reports here. Is there any way to know roughly when an order will be shipped? I cannot remember the last shipping update I received, and I want to make sure I know approximately when the keyboard will go out so I can make sure the person receiving it is aware it is coming (in this case, it is not shipping directly to me). I realise I could send this query as a direct message, but I figured the info might be useful to others in a similar position. Thanks.

Shipping notification will be sent to your email the day shipping label is created. That's the only way.

[cloudhax]

noticing now that my Right Ctrl, keypress is only intermittently being detected. it seems this key is default configured for 'Fn' on my F77. if I open via key tester and repeatedly hit Fn+1, Fn+2 etc. about half the time it detects as F1 or F2 and the other half it only detects as 1 or 2 (fails to detect Fn being pressed)

tried reseating the keycap a few times, pressing over and over to work it in. seems like it didn't help. thought it was some kind of binding problem or something but doesnt seem to matter how i press it, also tried putting a single unit sized keycap on there instead of the wider ctrl key but it acts the same

*edit,
after repeated testing the error rate is going down, maybe I just need to work it in more

[robo]

This is probably a really naive question, but I have gotten lost in keeping up with the progress reports here. Is there any way to know roughly when an order will be shipped?

It seems to be Ellipse's policy not to answer shipping date queries. I suspect it's because otherwise he'd be inundated with questions about it and recriminations due to missed targets given the... enthusiastic nature of the buyers and the long wait times...

[robo]

...unfortunately these keyboards do get bounced around in shipping.

I wonder if part of the problem is the "period correct" 80's style hard Styrofoam padding in the box. I've noticed that electronics these days are rarely packaged in hard Styrofoam but use either the softer closed cell foam, or cunningly engineered cardboard suspension systems, that probably provide more give when packages are flung by delivery drivers etc.

[tiltowait]

Even though a ballpark estimate of when I might expect my keyboard to ship would be nice, I don't blame Ellipse for not saying. I've seen the shall we say vocal frustration when side projects like this inevitably encounter delays.

[Ellipse]

cloudhax I am glad your new F77 arrived safely in the mail. Thanks for sharing the update!

Thanks for the update on the manual darkcruix! The standard reference guide for the buckling spring keyboards!

evoman and tiltowait I expect that I will be able to go through everyone's orders to mail things out over the coming months of this year, with the expectation that things wrap up around year end or early next year. After that I have to mail out the beam spring project Sorry I can't say exactly where a specific order is in the queue.

cloudhax if an issue is limited to one key it's usually an issue with the spring - the manual can help go through troubleshooting step by step. But with the bottom right key on the F62 or F77 the issue may require touching up the soldering if the spring reseating doesn't work as that key is on its own column.

robo yes an interesting point on the packaging, though styrofoam is still often used for heavy fragile stuff like microwaves as well as other items like shredders, etc. so I don't think it is completely replaced. I did chat with someone who worked for IBM in the 1980s, installing systems containing buckling spring keyboards. I learned that the occasional need to re-seat some keys during the initial setup and other shipping related issues were far less common when these systems were new because the systems were ultra delicate and primarily shipped in pallets by truck directly from IBM, as opposed to through the regular postal mail or UPS. Their comments as relayed to me:

"From what I recall, the biggest issues we had were with spacebars. Most of the keyboards would be fine, but spacebars would sometimes come loose in transit and if you didn't re-seat them carefully before setting up the system for someone, folks would either raise a support ticket to complain or try to fix the keyboard themselves, sometimes causing bigger issues. We'd set everything up in our workshop, install a Token Ring networking card and terminal software, test, and then wheel the entire system to them on a cart. We never tested that every key worked before delivery.

Keep in mind that we got the systems shipped to us on pallets directly from IBM and they were probably handled much more carefully, as they shipped together with old-school CRTs and the main CPUs. You are shipping your amazing products all around the world in individual packages and they probably get jostled around quite a bit more than what we ever had to deal with. And I'd be very surprised if IBM ever tested their packaging to what packages have to endure nowadays."

[robo]

Ah, I hadn't thought of that, re. delivery direct from IBM with other fragile equipment. Although what about IBM PC Model F keyboards? Those were sold through all kinds of retail channels I assume, and probably got some rough handling at times.

[paddle0]

Got my Industrial Gray F77 keyboard! Is another review necessary? No, but here's one anyway.

Only one keycap came pre-installed; the spacebar. I did have to press it about a dozen times before it would spring back reliably. But after that, I was pleased to find that both the hardware and the firmware worked perfectly.

Windows is not my primary operating system. But since I had access to it, configuring my layout was not especially difficult using the recently published tutorial video (no doubt made in response to Chyrosran22's review, so… thanks, mate!) I hope the QMK folks let this support out of beta soon, because personally I find it a lot easier to work from the main github repository and the command line.

I don't believe I had touched a Model F in good repair since the 1980's, but the way this keyboard sounds and feels comports closely to my recollections. Haven't used the integrated pencil holder yet, but when I do, I bet it will be awesome.

The keycaps look terrific, especially my Mopar Blue Escape key. I've had to temporarily substitute a few (old) Unicomp ones, and they stick out.

My interactions with Ellipse have been extremely positive.

I prefer full-sized keyboards, so doing without a true, 4 key-wide embedded numpad and a full set of dedicated function keys has been an adjustment. I plugged in an external (Alps) numpad, but the margins on the F77 are so large that it's kind of awkward to use them in tandem. Whatever… this keyboard is so good I can learn to live with it.

Here's my obligatory custom layout.

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I have "Show Application Windows" mapped to F1 and "Mission Control" to F3 and I use both of them a lot, so I dedicated real keys on either side of the Up Arrow key. Print Screen is mapped to take screenshots, and I use that a lot, too. Scroll Lock and Pause are cool, but I'm not using this keyboard with DOS or Windows MS Excel. So I mapped them to the Next Track and Play media keys, to use with the application that replaced iTunes.

Redundant Command/Windows and Alt/Option keys have always seemed like a waste to me, so I repurposed those spaces. I appreciate knowing the Fn key is there, but I almost never touch it. I have two left Control keys, because alternating between too many keyboards with inconsistent layouts has ruined my muscle memory for remembering which position it's supposed to be in. I also added a Compose (Menu) key, which I occasionally find useful but largely just think is neat.

Having Escape on the number row and keys adjacent to the nav cluster still feels strange, but I expect I'll get used to it. I moved caret/tilde next to the HHKB divided right shift for lack of a better option. Looks a little weird, but works.

I have used Hasu converters to remap keys on a Model M in the past, but the reprogrammable firmware on the F77 requires fewer cords and works more reliably when used in concert with USB switches.

So there you have it. This keyboard has replaced the new Unicomp Model M as my favorite. It has peculiarities to be sure, but nothing that's serious unless you have frequent need to enter in a lot of numbers (or are a heavy function key user.) In my fantasy, I still wish the new Model F's had included an F107 option. But if I'm being honest, I'd probably miss the desk space.

[Gurbsordidity]

Acknowledgement

@Ellipse, Weezer, Wazrach, phughes, Bjeerk

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement following my 6 August post, guys. My new F77 is typing beautifully. This is my first experience with buckling springs and I couldn't imagine a better.

Repair Debrief

I had to open my case three times to fix the major issue and to get all switches working. Made mistakes the first time and the second time that forced me to open it again and again. Had scary moments and surprises despite close study of the documentation and tutorials.

If anyone new to keyboard or electronics repair encounters what I did after shipping (see my photo posted 6 August), which Ellipse says is common, one gap in documentation that I can fill (or that I overlooked) is that the flippers sit loosely in their assembly and you don't have to snap them in to anything. That also means they'll fall out if you're not careful (my flippers did fly everywhere on first opening, Weezer, due to a careless moment at my rickity ghetto workbench).

Keyboard Layout, Firmware, and Delay and Repeat Rates

Now I face two more problems. First, I want a different layout, but none of the firmware solutions works for me, for various reasons. Because pandrew's utility fails to launch in Wine, I'm going to spin up Windows 10 in VirtualBox to see if it'll work there. I have other ideas too. I may come back here for more advice if I get truly stuck.

Second, if I set my delay rate to 188ms and my repeat rate to 25ms on an X Window System, my system log gets flooded with errors along the lines of "your client is not fast enough for this". On a Wayland system I'm unable to change delay or repeat rates at all. Has anyone else experienced this limitation? It could be that my CPU is new enough that its firmware is not well enough optimized for the task (high repeat rates and delay rates place a surprising amount of demand on a CPU), but three other keyboards I own do not have this limitation. I'll try another computer soon. I suspect most people are happy with default delay and repeat, and I don't hold out much hope for advice with it, but it's important enough to me that I'll dedicate time to figuring it out. If this is a limitation of the keyboard's firmware or design, I'd love to hear about it before I dig too deep.

I'll follow up here if I have any success.

As for the beamspring reveal, you are a legend in your own time, Ellipse. I'm in awe of you.

[cloudhax]

I'm going to spin up Windows 10 in VirtualBox to see if it'll work there

if you are able to pass through the USB device natively it may work. With jus the generic, translated USB keyboard via the virtualbox virtual keyboard driver, I suspect you may have issues communicating with the firmware on the controller. If that fails you may be best suited getting a cheap windows machine you can natively boot to interact with the firmware, but I look forward to hearing back if you are successful in Virtualbox as I may need to take advantage of that myself

[Gurbsordidity]

@cloudhax

I'm thinking the same. But I may have a better chance of success with an Ubuntu VM on KVM, since Ellipse has successfully tested the firmware on Ubuntu and KVM probably allows the kind of passthrough that VirtualBox might prevent. But I've never used KVM before. To avoid that learning curve I could just upgrade to Debian Unstable ("Sid"), which has some of the libraries I'm missing for the Via package. I'm on ZFS, so all I need to do in that case is take a snapshot of my file system first and then roll it back to Bullseye when done.

[Gurbsordidity]

Addenda:

Pandrew just PMd me that source code for his utility is available. Compiling from source is now at the top of my agenda.

He furthermore suspects my system is restricting repeat and delay rates. That settles the question in my mind.

[Gurbsordidity]

Question. After I compiled pandrew's utility, entered the bootloader, and ran

Code: Select all

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash my_qmk_firmware.hex

with the hex file I generated on the QMK site, the F77 became unresponsive and is no longer detected in pandrew's utility. Should I now open the case and short the chip to run the bootloader manually?

Also, is there a way to erase EEPROM manually?

EDIT

Never mind the EEPROM question. Darkcruix's manual says QMK distributes a hex file called `eeprom_eraser.hex`. I can run it with `dfu-programmer` on the command line if I get in to the bootloader manually.

[strah]

I designed a small 3D-printed holder/cage for the solenoid and driver to neatly mount it inside my F62. The entire cage is adhered to the case with double-sided tape and one side is held down through the thread and bolt of one of the feet. I also integrated a zip tie mount to fix the cables to the cage and act as a small strain relief. The solenoid is only held in place by friction, but so far this seems to work well. If you want, you could mount the solenoid with some additional double-sided tape, for some additional security. Here's a photo of the cage mounted inside my F62:



You can find the STL to print this for yourself over on Thingiverse: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4934026