That's exactly my thoughts.webwit wrote:I vote group buy because massdrop is fashionable but in the end 3rd party for profit and not community.
Could, but in that case I would hope they'd refund money to the people in group buys or else they would likely face legal action. And I trust in their (apparent) business model and their desire to succeed at it.webwit wrote:That argument can go any way. Massdrop can go tits up just after being handed $20-30k.
Similar to JesuswasaZombie's point, ask people involved in changdrew's taobao or imsto buys how easy it is to get your money back from a community figure if the buy falls through.webwit wrote:That argument can go any way. Massdrop can go tits up just after being handed $20-30k.
Their financials aren't anywhere in their About, their FAQ, or their Terms of Service, and with good reason; I wouldn't expect them to readily show us the secret sauce anyway. This is their business model, after all. But, for what it's worth, I've sent them an email to ask if they're at liberty to say, just so we're better informed.Vierax wrote:I don't know how much Massdrop takes for their service (5% ? 10%?) but I think it's a thing to check before starting.
Agreed. Massdrop seems like the best and perhaps only way forward at this point.bisl wrote:This is a service that--as we can readily see--no one wants to perform, and I strongly believe it's a service worth paying for.
It's not acceptable as a seller who doesn't send a pricelist : Does the price depend to the customer's face or to the psychological profile of buyer category? the "recipe" is ever known : it's not the only company to offer this kind of service and there is no reason to hide this information, there is no good reason except if they make profit with dropping down prices with component factories to keep the difference. At my level, I use Paypal and used Etsy and this is the first thing I check when I chose an intermediary to sell things.bisl wrote:Their financials aren't anywhere in their About, their FAQ, or their Terms of Service, and with good reason; I wouldn't expect them to readily show us the secret sauce anyway. This is their business model, after all. But, for what it's worth, I've sent them an email to ask if they're at liberty to say, just so we're better informed.Vierax wrote:I don't know how much Massdrop takes for their service (5% ? 10%?) but I think it's a thing to check before starting.
However, number-crunching aside, I want to point out the immense value in the rate negotiation, money handling, and shipping they'll be providing for probably around 200 units (according to Dorkvader's most recent lists). This is a service that--as we can readily see--no one wants to perform, and I strongly believe it's a service worth paying for.
If you have others in mind, simply name them and I will weigh them against Massdrop and any others that surface. I'm not married to Massdrop; they just seem like the best choice at the moment.Vierax wrote:it's not the only company to offer this kind of service
That has been the problem so far - no one has stepped up to do it. With the potential for 150-200 units, that's a lot of time for someone or a group of people to dedicate to logistics and the business side of things.7bit wrote:ps: I will not help with shipping the ErgoDox, because I've got other things to do ...
Nobody is "advertising", only proposing suggestions for a real problem that this project is going to have in terms of logistics. There are a lot of parts, and if we have 200+ buyers at 300 USD a piece, we're looking towards at least 60,000 USD. No one person wants to handle that much cash, and nobody is going to trust them, regardless if post count/legacy.fossala wrote:Is it just me or are the people wanting to use massdrop people with <50 posts? The come to the community and because they want to buy a product. They the tell us how we are going to do it? For all we know, they could be a massdrop sales rep. We already know they like to advertise to us on here.
I found this community after an exhaustive search of the net for a keyboard that fit my specifications, I was overjoyed when I found the thread on geekhack, but the deskthority site seemed to be a more cohesive community so I alighted here. My priority is to make this a keyboard reality as quickly and as safely as possible, I believe that all the "newcomers" have said as much, but I don't know all the major actors here.The come to the community and because they want to buy a product. They the tell us how we are going to do it?
Who is they exactly, which one of us here is a supposed an employee of massdrop? I was a longtime contributor to several forums and the general rule was to assume the good faith of new members. I would hope that that is the same here.For all we know, they could be a massdrop sales rep. We already know they like to advertise to us on here.
I'm not suggesting we should trust them either. I don't trust anyone when we're talking about tens of thousands of dollars sitting in an account. If you want to do multiple people handling an escrow account that needs multiple/unanimous authorization for a withdrawal you are talking about a lot of paper and administrative work.webwit wrote:I don't get the point where people you might know, inside the community, cannot be trusted, but some company run by unknown, can. Doesn't sound like a good community. These groupbuys run fine on the Korean forums. Why can't we? I think the trick is to not have it handled by one person, but multiple persons, and make a fun community project out of the groupbuy instead of a possible burden for a single person. That looks healthy to me. I think Massdrop etc. is only interesting if you want to make it bigger than the relatively hardcore keyboard communities.
oh, we did. that was pretty much the first thing.webwit wrote:Well, be sure to tell him at his next promotion that registration walls aren't cool.
I didn't mean to suggest that you do it, just that everyone seems to be busy with other things. I can imagine you've got enough on your plate.7bit wrote:Yes, but I will not do it because I run my own keyboard group buy. If someone wants this keyboard he should organize this group buy.
Yeah, it's things like this that are why people are suggesting a service like indiegogo or Massdrop that takes care of all of that for us. If trustworthy people want to step up and handle part sourcing and shipping logistics, indiegogo takes a 4% cut, which is pretty minor IMO. Since no one has offered to step up, having Massdrop do all the work for a 5%-15% cut is our other option.litster wrote:The bigger problem is, as with other GBs, is money collection, and PayPal/IRS (for USA anyway). EU folks may work around with bank transfer. NA folks will need to do PP, or personal checks or cashier's check.
He did, a few pages ago:dirge wrote:I'd love to see Dox give some guidance.
dox wrote:I've been quite busy lately but I can see that a lot of people want to get the group buy going.
I won't have time to run it personally but someone else can do it.
I don't really care if it's done with massdrop or a group buy. From what I've read in the last few posts, massdrop looks like a good idea.
. Lol. Good luck with python, it's an amazing amount of fun .. It'd be cool to hear more discussion on case options, even though I may not need one. That's really the only thing we're missing besides organization (and bpiphany's instructions on getting the PCBs when it's time for that) (and some touch up stuff, like instructions (me and litster?) and better code documentation (coming..!)) (can't thing of anything else at the moment).
massdrop wrote:Those are great questions and I'd be happy to walk through them with you. You've probably noticed that we don't have pricing on our website for running group buys. This is mostly due to the fact that there's such a huge variation in the amount of work that we need to do, so we figure out the cost on a case-by-case basis. How many calls we have to make, how many different steps/components in the group buys, and how difficult the logistics will be are all factors that come into play when figuring out the final price.
For a project like yours, the cost should be about 10% of the final price.
Keep in mind that this 10% buys you quite a bit:
1. Professional negotiations. We're really experienced at working directly with established manufacturers to get the best prices possible. Our hopes are that if the group remains as big as you said, we can help you negotiate the price even lower. Most manufacturers will only deal with incorporated businesses so using us to represent your group will ensure that you have the most options available to you.
2. Reliability. We've seen lots of group buys. One of the biggest issues with big ones is that PayPal and other payment processors are quick to freeze accounts that have sudden bursts of big activity (since they want to make sure you report it to the IRS as income). Many times it can take as long as 6 months to get your money back and the group becomes frustrated and worried. We have great relationships with Paypal, our merchant banks, and we regularly run group buys so there is no risk of any funny business happening with the groups money during the process.
3. Logistics, manpower, packaging materials, tracking numbers, updates. Our turnaround time for almost everything is about 24 hours. We've worked to build a very extensive logistics network that lets us handle big projects (i.e. group buys) in a very efficient and cost effective way. This means faster times, less mistakes, cheaper shipping (we get bulk discounts).
4. Fabrication sourcing. Right now you guys are planning on using Shapeways for the case manufacturing. Based on what we know, they have quite a high overhead and markups. We have a few ideas for alternate fabs for these cases that should be able to help lower the price quite a bit. We also have some contacts there that would be more than willing to help out.
5. Sales tax. Since we're a company registered to do business in several states, we don't have to pay sales tax for things that we plan on reselling. Unfortunately, this isn't the case for individuals who will have to pay the local sales tax on top of the price of the parts (meaning higher prices).
Hopefully this answered your question in enough detail. The reason we created Massdrop was to make it as easy as possible for groups of people to pull together and save money. Let me know if you have any other questions and we'll be more than happy to answer.