deskthority

Alps (and Matias) switches can benefit from some non MillMax type hotswap sockets.

I've been talking with Kailh about them making such sockets and the MOQ and price they've given me for the first order that would make the sockets happen is 100K MOQ at a price between $0.045 and $0.055 per socket.

I am unsure how will proxies work or if there will be any.

When I have any more information about that, or details, such as a color and a lifecycle of the sockets, or if any of the details change, I'll update the post.

The idea is that in the future, hopefully the sockets would be available for purchase from various stores or even from Kailh themselves. However, for the time being the goal is to make the first purchase as I can't afford to do it alone.

At the quoted prices, here are some examples of how many people we'd need at what quantity, etc:

• 10 People: 10K Sockets, $450 per person

• 100 People: 1000 Sockets, $45 per person

Interest check form (please only sign if you intend on buying): https://forms.gle/Xma3ytN5fE9bWU3r6

Count me in!

inozenz wrote: ↑

08 Mar 2022, 15:08

Count me in!

Awesome!

I made an IC form, linked above.

I've wanted a ALPs testboard for a while now so I'd love for this to be a thing.

CoolPenguin1 wrote: ↑

08 Mar 2022, 17:15

I've wanted a ALPs testboard for a while now so I'd love for this to be a thing.

I've thought in-terms of easing your life in-case your Alps switches die and have to replace them on your board but that's actually a brilliant idea.

Ima cop some if we absolutely need to I can by more than 2000 just expect me to be selling them on eBay and such if I have to get more to meet MOQ

Jacobalbertus1 wrote: ↑

08 Mar 2022, 17:35

Ima cop some if we absolutely need to I can by more than 2000 just expect me to be selling them on eBay and such if I have to get more to meet MOQ

That's absolutely awesome! Thank you!
Yeah, I have no problem whatsoever with whatever you do with them. I mean ideally, don't destroy them, besides that, everything is a fair game IMHO.

basically stating that i can invest some into these sockets

I’m in! Sounds like a great idea! Stupid question. For an existing alps board would you desolder the existing switches and solder these sockets in?

Unfortunately they won't fit into existing boards as the holes for the socket need to be bigger than the holes for the pins.

For existing PCBs look into Mill Max sockets. There may be a version that would fit. I have no experience with them as when I've been using sockets I've only used Kailh's type of sockets.

ifohancroft wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 03:51

Unfortunately they won't fit into existing boards as the holes for the socket need to be bigger than the holes for the pins.

For existing PCBs look into Mill Max sockets. There may be a version that would fit. I have no experience with them as when I've been using sockets I've only used Kailh's type of sockets.

Thanks I misunderstood the application. This would be used for a new PCB?

Yes.

Though I, similar to most of the other Alps-switches-liking members here, want to support this project as best as I could, getting 600-1000 sockets can probably be much more than just good enough for a life-time supply of my own usage.

It will be more effective if you contact some of the vendors and active projects (e.g. the Keymacs keyboards) who are tolding some stocks of Alps and Matias switches. Or that you, or your comrades (we're in just an era now...) can host some Alps-hotswap projects that enable you to digest (and profit from) some of the productions to meet the MOQ.

I know, majority of the enthusiasts here are not expert in running a business and managing cash-flows.

Thank you! That's a great idea! I didn't think of that. I thought about contacting vendors to possibly host the group buy if enough people show interest and act as a proxy, but I didn't think about contacting Keymacs and such and vendors for reaching the MOQ.

P.S. I just saw your comment on the form about specs and such. Thank you for reminding me because I keep forgetting to ask Kailh about the lifecycle of the switches.

As soon as I have more information such as specs, lifecycle, etc, I'll share.

I know Quark (doesn't have an account on here) said he plans to make some PCBs when the sockets are available. Also someone asked me about 65% PCBs, but at least at this point in time I don't think I'm the right person to make a PCB, so perhaps it would be Quark or someone else. Everyone is welcome to design PCBs utilizing the sockets.

I can make (or edit) PCBs if KiCAD footprints can be made.

Of course! As soon as the sockets are ready, I'll share footprints

thefarside wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 12:57

ifohancroft wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 03:51

Unfortunately they won't fit into existing boards as the holes for the socket need to be bigger than the holes for the pins.

For existing PCBs look into Mill Max sockets. There may be a version that would fit. I have no experience with them as when I've been using sockets I've only used Kailh's type of sockets.

Thanks I misunderstood the application. This would be used for a new PCB?

ifohancroft wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 13:21

Yes.

SK-8K wrote: ↑

10 Mar 2022, 00:24

I can make (or edit) PCBs if KiCAD footprints can be made.

I'm also misunderstanding. So, I'd be paying for sockets and a new PCB? I doubt you'd have enough PCB shapes to cover everything Alps.

However, as a separate project, I'd love a couple of PCBs ...

hellothere wrote: ↑

11 Mar 2022, 16:57

thefarside wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 12:57

ifohancroft wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 03:51

Unfortunately they won't fit into existing boards as the holes for the socket need to be bigger than the holes for the pins.

For existing PCBs look into Mill Max sockets. There may be a version that would fit. I have no experience with them as when I've been using sockets I've only used Kailh's type of sockets.

Thanks I misunderstood the application. This would be used for a new PCB?

ifohancroft wrote: ↑

09 Mar 2022, 13:21

Yes.

SK-8K wrote: ↑

10 Mar 2022, 00:24

I can make (or edit) PCBs if KiCAD footprints can be made.

I'm also misunderstanding. So, I'd be paying for sockets and a new PCB? I doubt you'd have enough PCB shapes to cover everything Alps.

The IC is just for the sockets. The sockets however, aren't compatible with existing PCBs because they aren't designed with them in-mind.

I am not trying to make PCBs to replace existing Alps' keyboards' PCBs.

Regarding my above post & ifohancroft's answer, that's too bad. As noted above by another poster, it'd be kinda fun to have an Alps/Alps Clone/Matias tester machine or just have the ability to switch out switches in a chassis you really like.

I was kind of hoping for the Mill-Max approach, where you've just soldering in a fitting where you'd otherwise just solder a leg of the switch. The Kailh ones for MX switches are a considerably different design and I was not that big a fan of their 1st gen sockets. I wouldn't mind trying their 2nd gen sometime, though.

Anyhow, ifohancroft, good luck with the group buy!

hellothere wrote: ↑

11 Mar 2022, 20:42

Regarding my above post & ifohancroft's answer, that's too bad. As noted above by another poster, it'd be kinda fun to have an Alps/Alps Clone/Matias tester machine or just have the ability to switch out switches in a chassis you really like.

I was kind of hoping for the Mill-Max approach, where you've just soldering in a fitting where you'd otherwise just solder a leg of the switch. The Kailh ones for MX switches are a considerably different design and I was not that big a fan of their 1st gen sockets. I wouldn't mind trying their 2nd gen sometime, though.

Anyhow, ifohancroft, good luck with the group buy!

Thank you!

Well, new PCBs can be designed to utilize the sockets. There have already been a couple of people expressing desire to design PCBs for them once they are out, however, whether they will be designing them to fit an existing chassis, I don't know.

Yes thanks for the clarification. I filled out the form but don’t think I’m going to participate.

Did anything happen with these? I would love to put some into my dell bigfoot if they do exist, so i can swap in some matias clickies

Sorry, it seems I forgot to update.

Kailh decided not to take on the project, and instead keep the machine time to making their existing sockets.
My knowledge is that Gateron also makes hotswap sockets, so I'll get in touch with them to see if they are interested in making them. I'll try to get in touch with them soon and will update you on their answer.

This is quite interesting; and $5000 is frankly a steal.

Still, I imagine this would be much more appealing if paired with a selection of PCBs designed to drop into popular, available cases. Because the sockets are only useful with PCBs anyway. I know I’d buy one or two hotswappable Alps PCBs if such things existed. The sockets alone? Nah.

Tl;dr: see if you can partner with one of the Alps/Mathias vendors on this.

Here’s how I would do it: first I’d pay the 5k for the 100k sockets (which is approximately 1000-2000 keyboards’ worth).

Then I’d have maybe three different PCBs designed: a TKL, a 60%, and as the third maybe a 75% or a numpad or a fullsize. There are plenty of talented people in the community who could do this.

At this point I would put up an IC post describing the project to gauge interest.

Getting the PCBs made would likely be the most challenging, since we need to ship the sockets to the manufacturer and they need to setup their pick n place for them, which shouldn’t be a problem but it is a complication.

I’d get quotes and MOQs from the PCB manufacturer and have samples produced to test for fit and function. Getting it right will take at least a few iterations, and in the meantime I’d put up the GB post with price tiers.

Now, this is Alps we’re talking, so there’s never enough interest. We’d be lucky to get 150 orders, and we should expect a few as maybe 50 even with really fair pricing.

I’d have to order extras to hit a decent price tier (ballpark $35 production cost per PCB?), maybe ordering a 50 of each type, for 150 in all. Now I’m out $10250 ($5000 plus $35*150) and I’m going to charge $50 plus shipping in the GB. Depending on how many people participate in the GB, I expect to recoup part of my investment, but not all of it:

At 50 participants: $2500 in, $10250 out

At 100 participants: $5000 in, $10250 out

At 150 participants: $7500 in, $10250 out

I’d be saddled with a loss but also with >85k spare sockets to use in subsequent runs. Over time this could end up paying for itself or even turning a profit. Hopefully.

However, add to that the tedious effort involved in re-packing, bubble wrapping, and shipping 100 PCBs and handling returns and QC issues, and the whole thing is looking like an awful way to spend my time when I’m not even turning a profit.

I could of course raise the GB price to $75 or $100 or $500 per PCB in the hope that rich punters would pay it and cover my costs, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

So as much as I’d love for this project to happen, I think what you need is for one of the Mathias vendors (or Mathias) to partner with you and cover the up front investment, since they could afford to up the initial production run to reduce the unit cost, they could cross-sell / bundle the PCBs with cases, switches and keycaps, and they already have the infrastructure in place to handle the shipping, warehousing, returns etc.