deskthority

I vote for a GB of parts, etc through Massdrop. At least that is what I was planning on doing for my IC on a parts GB). They would be able to handle logistics of shipping world wide as well as getting us a good discount on parts.

AloisiusFauxly wrote:Seriously though, I do hope I can just get the PCBs

Previous discussion has suggested that the GB will go through Massdrop, and so going PCB-only will depend on the logistics involved there. Specifically, whether all the parts can be rolled into a single comprehensive Ergodox massdrop, or whether there will be a separate massdrop for the PCBs, for the cases, for the teensies, the diodes, etc.

If they end up being separate items on Massdrop, then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to sign up for one and not the other.

By the way, I would like to volunteer to get this rolling if I can help in any conceivable way. JesuswasaZombie on GH was pretty hyped to go a month or two ago, and he's been around for longer than I have, too.

Well if the BOM is finalized then I can pass it on to BaudlyDamage from MassDrop and he can get us a quote, I was assuming that he could get us all the parts and potentially switches too. I had originally assumed that the PCBs were originally coming from a separate GB as well, same for the case.

It seems like the most common requests on the compiled interest list are for a full kit or for just PCBs. I can't see many people wanting a case without the PCBs. Assuming that caps/switches are a separate order, the most useful GBs in order of popularity would probably be:

- Everything
- Everything but the case (I would be into this as it would save a bit of cash)
- Just PCBs
- Case + PCBs (doubtful, but maybe people will have a Teensy and/or electronic components already)

@DeathΩRay, Can you also pass along that people might like to browse MassDrop without having to register or open up dev tools to delete the modal and mask elements on every page load?

This is what I see on every page with no way to click out of the modal:

all the talks are good and all. But, who is actually in charge of this project, and, if one exists, the group buy for this project? Who actually has the authority to do this group buy and who has the ability to do this group buy from start to finish?

Massdrop sounds interesting, but does anyone know exactly how it works, successfully completed a project with massdrop, how much overhead they charge, if the overhead is acceptable to potential buyers, and/or how they would do quality control for the case (laser cut acrylic case or shapeway 3D printed case)?

...


Talk to Hashbaz if you want logistic details about Massdrop.

For what it's worth, if you run IE8 or IE9 in compatibility mode, massdrop encourages you to use a different browser, and then politely shows you everything you wanted to see.

litster wrote:all the talks are good and all. But, who is actually in charge of this project, and, if one exists, the group buy for this project? Who actually has the authority to do this group buy and who has the ability to do this group buy from start to finish?

Technically I suppose dox, bpiphany, ic07, OrangeJewce, effh, and dorkvader are in charge of this project. However, they're all very busy and outside of doing the design work I'm guessing they'd all rather not handle group buy logistics (they probably all have theirs from the prototyping run anyway, I would assume).
The least we can do is attempt to prepare the details for when the order comes around, lest the project sit for months more when it's finished as it is. I'm hoping that by beginning to discuss the group buy itself, we can at least identify the people who will take responsibility for the GB such that dox/whoever else can come rubber stamp it with minimal effort and we can get started.

litster wrote:Massdrop sounds interesting, but does anyone know exactly how it works, successfully completed a project with massdrop, how much overhead they charge, if the overhead is acceptable to potential buyers, and/or how they would do quality control for the case (laser cut acrylic case or shapeway 3D printed case)?

I believe the principle concern is with money. Considering the relatively high cost of the Ergodox, plus the expected volume from the IC some time ago, we're talking about a very serious figures; I can't speak for others, but there's no way I could front that amount for the order, and I wouldn't ever expect people to pay up front and trust me to make the order afterwards. Massdrop provides us with a convenient way to mitigate this risk.
I'm assuming that for an order as complex as this we'd probably have to work with Massdrop a little to figure out how best to do it, and that's something we can try to accomplish while we wait to hear from the big chiefs of the project.

Regarding massdrop's "members only" wall, use the dom inspector to kill it if there is something that you want to see.

I agree with Bisl, getting an initial set of quotes is a step that won't hurt anything and will keep the ball rolling. Also I am on the fence about only pcbs or the "package" deal. Knowing where Massdrop comes in price wise will help me and perhaps some others make a decision on this score.

This is a great time for crowd funding to get the project moving forward, and fits perfectly with the working-prototype stage the project is at: PCBs/electronics basically done, case options coming together.

Discrete levels of funding through perks/rewards matches our varied interest here at DT and GH (just pcbs, pcbs+electronics, full kits, plastic vs metal case, etc). It also opens up the possibility to make a more attractive package by offering keycap sets, switches, and/or assembly. Having the closest we can to a complete keyboard will help attract more people outside of GH/DT, which is better for everyone's bottom line. It also takes care of the pre-order money issue as it's a large entity holding the funds.

Now, this all hinges on people getting behind the project, handling things like shipping logistics and communication. Since I just rolled into this project a couple weeks ago, I don't really know what roles people have stepped up to. If no one has done so already I'll start crunching some numbers to get a good idea of costs and target prices for something like indiegogo.

This looks like a great keyboard, and I'd like to help make it a reality.

To be honest, this is where Massdrop will shine, since they take care of the price breaks with the vendors themselves and handle shipping, etc. I don't know that indiegogo will work as well for something like this, as it's more of a general-purpose thing.
As well, if we just have separate Massdrops for each part or vendor (not sure how it works out exactly), then it will enable people to just buy the parts they want and it won't really matter that much what your particular buildout is (red switches, blue switches, tented case, flat case, etc).

If we start a Massdrop for each option in the areas that are configurable then the most popular ones will get discounted the most, but the less-popular ones will still be possible and will achieve some benefit. We just need to organize the assets we need to present to them for the order and I think we can get it started.

The other concern is assembly, since a significant portion of people said they'd prefer to have it built for them. If I recall, we had only about four people who had offered to perform assembly services, and they weren't even being paid as far as I know. For the volume this project will see, assembly by four people will take positively forever, and will complicate the shipping process from the GB since all the parts will need to go to the assemblers and not the buyers. I think we need to discuss how feasible this actually is.

Going the indiegogo route would require more organization and work, that's for sure. I'm willing to put in a bit of work toward that end as long as it's not just me doing it.

Having the logistics taken care of by someone like Massdrop would be good though, as long as they can handle the individual buys and treat them as one. What would that look like anyway? I don't know if they're set up to do multiple options in one group buy, based on their polls.

So it would most likely be one MD for the PCBs, one for Teensies, one for the remaining electronic parts and TRRS cable. But multiple for case designs, multiple for styles of keycap sets, and multiple for switches. If they're okay with that and they can leverage group rates for keycaps and switches even with the different group buys, then it's feasible.

As far as soldering goes, I think that should be up to the buyer to work out before the order is placed. That way they can have it shipped to the assembler's house and the assembler can ship the completed unit to the buyer. I feel that people should be compensated for the assembly service if they wanted to take that on.

For what it's worth, I've emailed Massdrop to start the discussion about if we can use their service for this project, and how it will look if we go through them. I laid out our requirements (numerous components, components with options, possible alternate shipping) in a decent amount of detail. I'll post back once I hear from them!

I totally agree about paying the assemblers--both out of respect for the service they're performing, and also because voluntary services don't typically command a very high priority in people's evenings. Especially when the volume is potentially in the hundreds. This is very much a skilled-labor service, and if someone in the community is going to be performing it, I would expect to pay them for it.

Good stuff!

If it doesn't make sense for them to do it and we have to do it ourselves, I think an indiegogo campaign would have more reach outside of GH/DT, which could mean more qty and cheaper prices on everything. Heck, injection molding a case might even be possible if we generated enough interest.

I emailed Signature Plastics and asked about rough prices for a set, we'll see what they say. It would be good if we could satisfy the majority of the people who want keycaps or full keyboard kits with a small number of keycap price/profile/layout/style options to try and get quantity. If we have too many options laid out, it will likely cause people to fragment and we won't reach a good price on anything.

I'm all for the DCS family for a sculpted set as it seems the most ergonomic, whereas something like the DSA family or LF 11 family can be reconfigured to suit different layouts. Black is a pretty safe colour these days, although I do really like the gray scheme on ergodox.org, and the blue/gray Dolch set.

I'm not sure how I feel personally on the whole crowdsourcing thing. Who is going to handle the money? What if we far exceed the amount of money we want to raise? There's factors here we should consider carefully, and the design including the case should be fully complete before making a decision. I think Dox's input would be really nice here as well.

Cheers,

I'm not sure what the point of crowd sourcing is in this case. Unless somebody wants to invest in something or make money somehow everybody should simply pay for what they want.

OrangeJewce wrote:Who is going to handle the money?

Massdrop will--that's 90% of the point of going through them.
I think we all realize that entrusting someone with all the capital required to make an Ergodox is a bigger deal than buying $2 custom keycaps from taobao; if I were to guess, I would say that is the reason this hasn't taken off so far. That's why Massdrop is nice though--you basically just buy in on one of their group buys for the price at the bottom break; after the deadline expires, you're refunded the difference from whatever price break is achieved. No one of us has to handle money, so that concern is alleviated. No crowd-sourcing at all in that respect.

OrangeJewce wrote:I think Dox's input would be really nice here as well.

Me too. Seems like he's got a lot on his plate at the moment though.

bisl wrote: I think we all realize that entrusting someone with all the capital required to make an Ergodox is a bigger deal than buying $2 custom keycaps from taobao; if I were to guess, I would say that is the reason this hasn't taken off so far.

It's rather that no-one wants to handle all the money (perhaps even don't want to handle all the administration to be more precise). The trusting part has been proven in previous large group buys. The Phantom and 7bit's switch buys comes to mind for example.

AloisiusFauxly wrote:

bpiphany wrote:And there are no 1.5X vertical keys in the DCS family

I didn't see any 1.5 verts in any set, and they would look janky as they wouldn't match the profile. Yeah, the flat profile of the DSA would make it cheaper, more consistent, and lend more flexibility to layout changes (assuming legends).

The DSA caps are the same vertical and horizontal. So they come in all lengths as vertical ;)

bpiphany wrote:It's rather that no-one wants to handle all the money (perhaps even don't want to handle all the administration to be more precise). The trusting part has been proven in previous large group buys. The Phantom and 7bit's switch buys comes to mind for example.

Sure--I wrote this from my perspective, and since I'm pretty new to the community and I've never run a group buy, I can't imagine anyone wanting to dump several hundred USD per unit into my hands.

In any case, regardless of my inability to explain the reasons, I think going through a funding/purchasing service such as Massdrop, Indiegogo, etc will relieve any conceivable responsibility/trust concerns.

bpiphany wrote: It's rather that no-one wants to handle all the money (perhaps even don't want to handle all the administration to be more precise).

Yeah, the admin side of things is probably the most time consuming and is more likely to happen if we pay someone to do it. Hence why we're going to be effectively paying Massdrop for the service. I don't think they could realize too much in the way of savings getting bulk deals from manufacturers compared to a forum member like 7bit, so they've gotta make their money somewhere. I could be wrong though.

bpiphany wrote:The DSA caps are the same vertical and horizontal. So they come in all lengths as vertical

But! But! I'll know they're sideways and it will eat me up inside! WHAT HAPPENS IF I PUT THEM ON UPSIDE-DOWN!? Yeah, DSA sounds like the best option for most people's needs.

bisl wrote:In any case, regardless of my inability to explain the reasons, I think going through a funding/purchasing service such as Massdrop, Indiegogo, etc will relieve any conceivable responsibility/trust concerns.

With indiegogo there is a trust concern as after the campaign is funded, they take their 4% cut and then release the money to whomever is in charge of the campaign. Which in our case would probably be a project contributor who is a member here.

I just heard back from Massdrop, and their answer was basically ideal:

• They will take payment from individuals and roll them together into large scale orders for us, achieving price breaks and relieving us of money-handling concerns.
• They will do the price break level and pricing negotiations with each vendor involved in the massdrop.
• They can compose several components from several different sources into a single-transaction massdrop.
• They will soon (weeks not months) be able to express options for one particular component within a composite massdrop.
• They can handle shipping details, such as shipping to a designated assembler rather than the purchaser.
• They can set up polls, as noted before, which will allow us to gauge current interest, as well as convey interest check information to them to aid in the vendor negotiations.

Here are the relevant implications:

• People can buy the components they want, and only the components they want.
• Everyone is fulfilled at the same time, regardless of what they buy.
• Polling organizes interest-check paperwork and gets a current snapshot to help them work with vendors.
• Swipe your card; wait. No one does any work.

Furthermore, in the past it was explicitly stated that switches and caps were not going to be part of the buy. However, with the amazing capabilities of Massdrop, and because it adds work for no one, I don't see any reason why we can't poll and purchase switches and maybe caps as well.

The argument for this in the past was just that too many people wanted too many different switch types, cap colors, etc, and this would impossibly complicate the buy. Massdrop handles all this, and with massdrop options those who don't want them don't buy them. Armed with approximate numbers (from polling) Massdrop is confident that they can roll different types of switches together for price breaks. Practically speaking, it's just one more thing to specify when you're checking out--if you want it--and it increases work for no one in the community.

Furthermore, as noted in the thread, the Ergodox has more >1.0x keys than your average bear. We can do the same thing with SP for the wide keys at the very least, perhaps even in a variety of colors depending on how polling and negotiations go.

I'll continue to update as the conversation continutes.

Thank you for the thorough explanation. I, for one, vote we go with this.

Thanks for taking the time to do that Bisl, and I agree that this sounds like the ideal choice. My vote goes to Massdrop as well. I see that Geekhack has been kept up to date as well, so I guess that once we can get a full BoM and list of choices to Massdrop, we can see how interesting this project is to the community at large. I for one will send several similarly inclined people to Massdrop to take a peek once this process begins.

Good news about MassDrop. I want this project to take off, but I wasn't looking forward to doing logistics.

Those Dolch replicas look so nice. I'd love to go that route.

I've been quite busy lately but I can see that a lot of people want to get the group buy going.
I won't have time to run it personally but someone else can do it.
I don't really care if it's done with massdrop or a group buy. From what I've read in the last few posts, massdrop looks like a good idea.

I don't know how much Massdrop takes for their service (5% ? 10%?) but I think it's a thing to check before starting.

I vote group buy because massdrop is fashionable but in the end 3rd party for profit and not community.

@webwit - For a group buy, who's handling logistics? Is someone going to lay out $20-30k and then ask for people's money when they have parts in hand, or are we expected to give money up front? If that's the case, who is going to be the person to trust across both DT and GH?

Massdrop profits, but they also handle everything. I think it's a worthwhile cost to pay someone to handle all of that for us, and that way we don't put the burden on volunteer(s).

That argument can go any way. Massdrop can go tits up just after being handed $20-30k.