deskthority

Force curves!

Personally, I really like Matias switches. They've put real R&D into keyboard switch development, something that, until very recently, just wasn't done.

Something neat, the Actuation Force (work) between Matias Clicky and Matias Quiet Click is the same!
I wonder if this is a fluke or did Edgar Matias design the switches this way.





You can also see that slight bump on Matias Linear switches.

4mm? Their travel distance is bigger than regular alps?

That sharp tactile fall off for the MC's is really satisfying.

lepidus wrote: ↑4mm? Their travel distance is bigger than regular alps?

Yes, and the actuation is deeper down too, I noticed it while doing the review.

I feel like it would be a pretty sizable coincidence if the actuation force was the same by chance, I'd like to think he designed them that way.

I also like Matias quite a lot. I can't help but think that a lot of these people out looking for a great modern non-clicky tactile switch really just need to try the QC. Definitely a very sharp, unique feel compared to most other modern switches.

So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

It should be the first time I see the force curve of Matias' switches, thanks HaaTa!
Please add the force curves of the many variants of older genuine Alps switches, I am very curious to know how their force curves look like. I believe all of us are willing to send you some Alps switch samples, even I'm in the EU, so please just ask.

I've become more and more interested in Matias' switches, especially after watching Chyros' review on Matias' 35g linear switches. Matias definitely has to consider making some 50 or 60 gram variants of their cushioned linear switches or provide modification springs options for us keyboard enthusiasts.

Chyros wrote: ↑So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

Some users reported a "secondary tactile event" during the key-press on Matias' Quiet-Click, perhaps that is true and how that shows up in the force curve.

Menuhin wrote: ↑

Chyros wrote: ↑So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

Some users reported a "secondary tactile event" during the key-press on Matias' Quiet-Click, perhaps that is true and how that shows up in the force curve.

No, it's not that, that's the thing at about 3 mm depth. I've seen it before on some of his force charts for very tactile switches, was wondering what could be causing it.

Chyros wrote: ↑So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

It looks like underdamped overshoot- the tactile cliff is so steep that the gauge has trouble accurately measuring directly after the bump. Compare to a thermostat that brings air a bit too hot, then over some time settles down- looks like the same thing is going on here.

Consider it a badge of True Tactility(tm).

Menuhin wrote: ↑Some users reported a "secondary tactile event" during the key-press on Matias' Quiet-Click, perhaps that is true and how that shows up in the force curve.

The secondary event comes from the contact plate's leaf. Same thing happens on most SKCx (if not all Alps). It's a reason that the longer switch plates are preferred by some- the 2nd bump can come a bit later, and less intensely (see Haata's curves on Orange and Black SKCM for reference).

Is it measured by pressing in middle, on top or bottom of the key? Because Matias switches feel completely different depending on where you press them. Quiets are very sharp and almost clicky when pressed on top, and extremely quiet with smooth curve very similar to topre when pressed in bottom of the keycap. Would be nice to see those differences acutally measured.

drevyek wrote: ↑

Spoiler:

Chyros wrote: ↑So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

It looks like underdamped overshoot- the tactile cliff is so steep that the gauge has trouble accurately measuring directly after the bump. Compare to a thermostat that brings air a bit too hot, then over some time settles down- looks like the same thing is going on here.

Consider it a badge of True Tactility(tm).

Menuhin wrote: ↑Some users reported a "secondary tactile event" during the key-press on Matias' Quiet-Click, perhaps that is true and how that shows up in the force curve.

The secondary event comes from the contact plate's leaf. Same thing happens on most SKCx (if not all Alps). It's a reason that the longer switch plates are preferred by some- the 2nd bump can come a bit later, and less intensely (see Haata's curves on Orange and Black SKCM for reference).

Thanks for the link.

It struck me that almost all Alps switches have this second bump (okay perhaps not quite a 'tactile' and obvious event) near the end of the key travel at around 3mm or tiny bit early.
Another noteworthy and quite telling observation is, Alps SKCM browns has a really round curve, with its shape almost looks like ... a Topre switch (!?) On the other hand, SKCM Oranges and SKCM Blues have curves of similar shapes, quite rounded not as rounded as the brown's, with their second bump quite close to the first bump almost looking like a holistic event.

Menuhin wrote: ↑

drevyek wrote: ↑

Spoiler:

Chyros wrote: ↑So what's causing that little dip thing right after the tactile bump on Click switches then? It's interesting to see that they're so much more tactile than the tactile switches, though I guess that's typical for Alps-like switches. This is the first time we've really seen it so clearly, though.

It looks like underdamped overshoot- the tactile cliff is so steep that the gauge has trouble accurately measuring directly after the bump. Compare to a thermostat that brings air a bit too hot, then over some time settles down- looks like the same thing is going on here.

Consider it a badge of True Tactility(tm).

Menuhin wrote: ↑Some users reported a "secondary tactile event" during the key-press on Matias' Quiet-Click, perhaps that is true and how that shows up in the force curve.

The secondary event comes from the contact plate's leaf. Same thing happens on most SKCx (if not all Alps). It's a reason that the longer switch plates are preferred by some- the 2nd bump can come a bit later, and less intensely (see Haata's curves on Orange and Black SKCM for reference).

Thanks for the link.

It struck me that almost all Alps switches have this second bump (okay perhaps not quite a 'tactile' and obvious event) near the end of the key travel at around 3mm or tiny bit early.
Another noteworthy and quite telling observation is, Alps SKCM browns has a really round curve, with its shape almost looks like ... a Topre switch (!?) On the other hand, SKCM Oranges and SKCM Blues have curves of similar shapes, quite rounded not as rounded as the brown's, with their second bump quite close to the first bump almost looking like a holistic event.

The second bump is in all Alps switches with a switchplate. It's caused by the slider clearing the contact leaf. Even linear switches have this bump, which you can clearly feel.

The SKCM brown one really threw me. It's clearly the same kind of curve as for SKCM Neon Green, which FINALLY gives some actual, strong proof that Non Green and Brown are indeed related. And yeah, many people including myself have described this kind of feeling as being much like a "mechanical rubber dome" feeling.

Chyros wrote: ↑

Menuhin wrote: ↑
It struck me that almost all Alps switches have this second bump (okay perhaps not quite a 'tactile' and obvious event) near the end of the key travel at around 3mm or tiny bit early.
Another noteworthy and quite telling observation is, Alps SKCM browns has a really round curve, with its shape almost looks like ... a Topre switch (!?) On the other hand, SKCM Oranges and SKCM Blues have curves of similar shapes, quite rounded not as rounded as the brown's, with their second bump quite close to the first bump almost looking like a holistic event.

The second bump is in all Alps switches with a switchplate. It's caused by the slider clearing the contact leaf. Even linear switches have this bump, which you can clearly feel.

The SKCM brown one really threw me. It's clearly the same kind of curve as for SKCM Neon Green, which FINALLY gives some actual, strong proof that Non Green and Brown are indeed related. And yeah, many people including myself have described this kind of feeling as being much like a "mechanical rubber dome" feeling.

I saw that you mentioned this second tactile bump in the Matias keyboard review, is it more pronounced on the Matias click switches compared to SKCM blue or SKCM white? I've been thinking about a modern replacement.

AlpsAddict wrote: ↑

Chyros wrote: ↑

Menuhin wrote: ↑
It struck me that almost all Alps switches have this second bump (okay perhaps not quite a 'tactile' and obvious event) near the end of the key travel at around 3mm or tiny bit early.
Another noteworthy and quite telling observation is, Alps SKCM browns has a really round curve, with its shape almost looks like ... a Topre switch (!?) On the other hand, SKCM Oranges and SKCM Blues have curves of similar shapes, quite rounded not as rounded as the brown's, with their second bump quite close to the first bump almost looking like a holistic event.

The second bump is in all Alps switches with a switchplate. It's caused by the slider clearing the contact leaf. Even linear switches have this bump, which you can clearly feel.

The SKCM brown one really threw me. It's clearly the same kind of curve as for SKCM Neon Green, which FINALLY gives some actual, strong proof that Non Green and Brown are indeed related. And yeah, many people including myself have described this kind of feeling as being much like a "mechanical rubber dome" feeling.

I saw that you mentioned this second tactile bump in the Matias keyboard review, is it more pronounced on the Matias click switches compared to SKCM blue or SKCM white? I've been thinking about a modern replacement.

Yes, I'd say it is, because it's more separated from the main tactile event, so it stands out more.

So I tried a matias clicky over the weekend, and I quite liked it,

PollandAkuma wrote: ↑So I tried a matias clicky over the weekend, and I quite liked it,

It's a great switch, much better than the majority of clicky switches out on the market at the moment, I think.

@HaaTa: Thanks for generating the force-displacement curves for Matias switches. I, too, have admired Matias' efforts and I like the switches --I just wish he had designed the top housings to have slits like pine Alps so that they would be quieter. His Quiet switch is definitely quiet, but I don't like the feel of the dampers.

When you say the actuation "force" is 99gfmm, do you mean "work" (= force x distance)?

Yeah, I think of it as "total force to actuate". It's the area under the curve.

How about we use a real SI unit then and call it 970 μJ?

Ratfink wrote: ↑How about we use a real SI unit then and call it 970 μJ?

I would love to get a keyboard where you can set the actuation force and at the end of the day can check out total daily typing calories ...

Wodan wrote: ↑

Ratfink wrote: ↑How about we use a real SI unit then and call it 970 μJ?

I would love to get a keyboard where you can set the actuation force and at the end of the day can check out total daily typing calories ...

There's are pretty good idea, of course with adjustable tactile feedback and programmable clicker for linear mode.

Wodan wrote: ↑

Ratfink wrote: ↑How about we use a real SI unit then and call it 970 μJ?

I would love to get a keyboard where you can set the actuation force and at the end of the day can check out total daily typing calories ...

With 1 mJ / keystroke, you'd need about 4.2 million keystrokes to burn one Calorie. Typing is a pretty bad workout.

It might be interesting to look at the force vs. time curves (impulse or change in momentum) for keyboard switches.

Could that be derived somehow, or would you need a measurement tool to handle it directly?

It's my chief frustration with Lethal Squirrel's Cherry MX animations: they don't depict the way your finger jumps as you go past actuation.

I finally created part of (just the key, without the accompanying graph, and downstroke only) an animation to show this effect, but it came out surprisingly ineffective:

[wiki]Introduction to keyboards[/wiki] (towards the bottom)

It goes back to my ADSR model of force curves, and whether you have path return or path divert. My observation is that "path divert" switches feel inherently linear, including MBS and Futaba clicky. You can see the Futaba clicky switch force graph at the bottom of this page, and it's a path divert design:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/k ... 8pc88.html

However, there's another distinction: positive-only (tactile peak) and positive-negative (tactile peak followed by a tactile trough).

The difficulty is that you need two things to be able to make these assessments:

a) Force curves of every known switch type
b) A huge collection of keyboards, as loose switches are worthless for investigating feel

I don't have space for the keyboards or any hope of measuring them, so I won't ever be able to progress these ideas in terms of feel, and classification based solely on visual inspection of the force curves isn't sufficient.

HaaTa wrote: ↑Yeah, I think of it as "total force to actuate". It's the area under the curve.

Technically, the area under the force vs displacement (distance) curve would be the "work". The units would be same as energy units, e.g., Joules or kcal.

In any event, thanks for producing these force-displacement curves for Matias switches. I have been requesting this from the Matias company for years.