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Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 16:38
by webwit
60cN for MX Blue? I measured activation in grams for a number of keys as follows:
Code: Select all
ESC J F5 4 E B ARRLEFT Average
Filco 87MC 48.00 47.45 48.00 47.90 48.05 47.80 47.95 48g
I guess it's the difference between the Druckpunkt and the Schaltpunkt.
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 16:44
by IvanIvanovich
I was wondering if I would ever see one of these outside of Cherry datasheets. What keyboard was it in? I guessed it was meant to be used as a spacebar switch on keyboards that had white switches.
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 16:56
by yab8433408
- A12.jpg (55.28 KiB) Viewed 8868 times
1CN ≠ 1g
MX1A-B1xx ≠ 150g
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 17:02
by Muirium
1CN = 1.02 grams of force, according to Wolfram Alpha. (The difference between assuming 10 and 9.81 ms^-2 for gravitational acceleration I assume.) In any case, not enough to explain the difference in these figures.
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 17:13
by BimboBB
so thats a mx super blue in grey?
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 17:18
by 7bit
I think, what he want to tell us, is that the wiki entry is wrong and MX1A-B1xx is
not a super black but a super grey.
@yab8433408:
Thanks for your great contributions!
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 17:28
by yab8433408
7bit wrote:I think, what he want to tell us, is that the wiki entry is wrong and MX1A-B1xx is
not a super black but a super grey.
@yab8433408:
Thanks for your great contributions!
感谢您的解释，因为我不会英语，所以只能用图片表达我的意识……
还是您懂我的心啊……
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 17:36
by Muirium
The Google Translation of that is actually quite poetic!
More rings on diagrams until we understand everything.
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 18:28
by 7bit
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 22:50
by webwit
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 23:13
by Daniel Beardsmore
I don't remember now — shows how little attention anyone ever pays to anything I put on the wiki, if it takes a Chinaman to spot the mistakes … I'll update the data based on the catalogues I've got.
The one depicted in this topic is not a MX1A-B1xx though, as that's tactile (per the catalogue), and the depicted switch is clicky.
(I like the "fixation pins" — never noticed that before)
yab8433408: 你在哪里找到这些开关？什么样的键盘这些开关是从何而来呢？ (Where did you find these switches? What keyboards did these switches come from?)
Posted: 17 Oct 2013, 23:16
by webwit
I remember some thread where the super black was mentioned and there was a discussion about it. There could be conflicting info in it, but I can't find it right now.
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 01:32
by Daniel Beardsmore
Dunno, but now this topic now has a photo claiming that click grey is MX1A-B1 :P
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 02:09
by Daniel Beardsmore
Actually, I think yab8433408 is correct, and Cherry are wrong.
The 1994 "Keymodule MX" brochure has white (A) and grey 36 (B) down as "tactile" with "Movement Differential" (hysteresis). It looks like the only switches that have hysteresis are the clicky switches (with this being generated by the sliding collar), and we understand white to be clicky, not tactile. Therefore, it stands to reason that, just as they missed the word "Click" from the description of A, they missed it from B, too, making yab8433408 correct: MX1A-B1xx is indeed click grey. (They write "Click" in quotes — they seem more concerned with hysteresis than the click in the brochure.)
As such:
- No evidence to date that "super grey" exists; "super black" is confirmed, but has no known part number
- MX1A-B1xx is [wiki]Cherry MX Click Grey[/wiki]
- I've updated [wiki]Cherry MX[/wiki] per my 1994 brochure, except for the actuation forces, which are in dispute (e.g. the alleged 60 cN for MX blue) — all my newer brochures are useless and don't list all the variants
What's interesting is that there is a "cam" (bump) on the stem of the hysteresis switches: Cherry make a point of ensuring you can recognise these (see yabb's images above). This is further evidence that, since B has a cam, it should be clicky like white (A), green (E) and blue (F). I have no idea what this was meant to be about.
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 02:15
by Daniel Beardsmore
Actually^2 — since MX white is greased to reduce the click, maybe click grey is also greased to reduce the click? This may be why Cherry are more interested in hysteresis and why they don't refer to white as "click" either.
So maybe it should be MX Hysterical Grey.
One of those things where we need to get someone like litster to translate for us.
PS
Does anyone know for sure that "type A" and "type B" vintage MX white switches are both MX1A-A1? Are we sure that the 50 cN one wasn't in fact an early MX1A-E1 without the pigmentation? The alternative is that one of them is an unknown switch, or that Cherry was making switches that didn't match the spec, which seems wrong to me. When is MX blue actually known to have been introduced? Are the Type A vintage MX whites greased, or loud click?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 02:48
by Muirium
For so popular a switch, MX blue is pretty far down the alphabet, if something as simple as that means anything. Why would white come "first"? And green before blue?
I've a purely speculative pet theory that black came out first, and white was next. Blue was a later development, along with its partner green, when loud switches got better traction than soft click ones.
But I know nothing, and my hunches are dangerous!
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 09:57
by 7bit
The way it is now, it makes much more sense!
MX1A-11xx linear normal (black)
MX1A-21xx linear space bar (grey)
MX1A-A1xx clicky normal (white)
MX1A-B1xx clicky space bar (grey)
MX1A-C1xx tactile normal (clear)
MX1A-D1xx tactile space bar (grey)
MX1A-E1xx clicky normal (blue)
MX1A-F1xx clicky space bar (green)
MX1A-G1xx tactile normal (brown)
MX1A-H1xx unkown
I, J might be left out ...
MX1A-K1xx unkown
MX1A-L1xx linear (red)
BTW: A color comparison between those greys whould be nice.
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 10:57
by Muirium
I'm betting that MX yellow and orange sit somewhere in the H, (I, J) and K range!
Argh, this madness of greys. I have one tactile grey and one linear grey of my own and I can't even tell them apart without pressing. Would a stamp of the letter code on the stem have been too much to ask? Though I suppose I should go look for the mysterious "cam" now. I just assumed all MX switches had them for no obvious reason…
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 11:23
by 7bit
I bet they are somewhere in the 4-9 area!
Or maybe they got special numbers because they where never a regular product ...
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 12:42
by Soarer
Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Actually, I think yab8433408 is correct, and Cherry are wrong.
The 1994 "Keymodule MX" brochure has white (A) and grey 36 (B) down as "tactile" with "Movement Differential" (hysteresis). It looks like the only switches that have hysteresis are the clicky switches (with this being generated by the sliding collar), and we understand white to be clicky, not tactile. Therefore, it stands to reason that, just as they missed the word "Click" from the description of A, they missed it from B, too, making yab8433408 correct: MX1A-B1xx is indeed click grey. (They write "Click" in quotes — they seem more concerned with hysteresis than the click in the brochure.)
I remember having a similar discussion with ripster in 2011, after I added a section on MX part numbers to the GH Wiki. He didn't like that I said 'click' for A and B. I compromised by adding { } around words that weren't directly from Cherry datasheets...
c = Operating Characteristics, Actuating Force and Key Style
0: Special
1: Momentary, single pole, {linear}, 2.1 oz / 60cN, standard, black keystem
2: Momentary, single pole, {linear}, 2.8 oz / 80cN, spacebar, {dark} grey 37 keystem
3: Alternate action, single pole, 2.1 oz / 60cN, {grey upper housing, black keystem}
4:
A: Momentary single pole with tactile feel, 80cN standard, {click} Movement differential, white keystem {obsolete}
B: Momentary single pole with tactile feel, 105cN space bar, {click} Movement differential, grey 36 keystem {obsolete}
C: Momentary, single pole, tactile feel, 2.3 oz / 65cN, clear keystem
D: Momentary, single pole, tactile feel, 2.8 oz / 80cN, spacebar, {light} grey 39 keystem
E: Momentary single pole, tactile feel 2.1 oz / 60cN, “click” differential movement, blue keystem
F: Momentary, single pole, tactile feel, 2.8 oz / 80cN, “click” differential movement, space bar, green keystem
G: Momentary single pole with tactile feel (ergonomic), 55cN standard, brown keystem {special order only?}
L: {Momentary, single pole, linear, 45cN, standard, red keystem} {special order only?}
I also hazily recall musing on the phrase "Identification by keystem with a cam". Clearly, it's a translation from German, but is it correct? I thought that "Identification
of keystem with a cam", with cam meaning the sliding piece, seemed like it might be more correct. IIRC, 'von' can mean either 'by' or 'of', right?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 12:50
by Soarer
7bit wrote:BTW: A color comparison between those greys whould be nice.
36%, 37%, 39% ?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 13:23
by Halvar
Soarer wrote:
I also hazily recall musing on the phrase "Identification by keystem with a cam". Clearly, it's a translation from German, but is it correct? I thought that "Identification of keystem with a cam", with cam meaning the sliding piece, seemed like it might be more correct. IIRC, 'von' can mean either 'by' or 'of', right?
Have you seen the German text somewhere (I haven't)? I think that by cam they mean the little marker (pin?) on the side of the stem's surface that e.g. whites have:
but clears don't:
So they mean that A and B can be identified by
having the "cam" on the stem that A and B have while C and D don't.
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 13:28
by Muirium
Yes, that little blister is definitely the "cam", as pictured here:
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:13
by Soarer
Well, I think you're both wrong
Not that it matters now that we
know that the identification means a clicky switch, and that's all we really care about, but still...
A cam is a rotating or sliding piece in a mechanical linkage used especially in transforming rotary motion into linear motion or vice-versa
There's no way I can think of to fit the meaning of Cam to the identification pin - it doesn't move, and nothing else moves because of it! Of course, there's also nothing 'rotary' about the sliding piece but, allowing for clunky translation, it fits the facts a lot better.
I haven't seen the German text... but what I say is plausible, right? It may have said "Identifikation vonTasten-Schaft mit einem Nocken", where 'von' could mean either 'by' or 'of', and if it meant 'of' in this case "mit einem Nocken" might be better translated as "having a cam", giving "Identification of a keystem having a cam".
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:23
by Halvar
"Nocken" means both "cam" and "pin", so I still think it's a bad translation to English by the Cherry engineers.
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:31
by Muirium
Suboptimal translation ist forbidden!
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:40
by Soarer
Ah, I didn't know that 'einem Nocken' could mean 'a pin'... but nor do any German-English dictionaries on the web, it seems
Now we have two plausible mis-translations, even if the original German was that text - we could probably guess at alternative original texts and find further meanings - at the very least, there's no argument that it's a poor translation!
Is Nocken commonly used to mean a pin of this kind? Or would a German engineer tend to use a different word?
edit: They use 'Fixierpins' to describe the mounting pins used on PCB-mounted switches.. so, err, 'Pin'?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:46
by 7bit
Soarer wrote:7bit wrote:BTW: A color comparison between those greys whould be nice.
36%, 37%, 39% ?
I thought of a
real photo ...
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 14:49
by Halvar
EDIT (wrong link):
http://dict.leo.org/ende/index_en.html# ... wSingle=on
I'd rather expect an engineer to use something like maybe "Zapfen" or even "Pin", but I guess that there are really a lot of words for something like that, and "Nocke" would be one of them.
