Split ergonomic keyboard project

[justcallmecrash]

I am getting really tired of saying there won't be a PCB only buy. That isn't going to happen. Stop asking. We are not going to split initial order. Everyone will get the same price, regardless of whether you want a case or not. After the initial buy the designs will be released under GPL and then you are free to do a PCB buy whenever or however you like.

Woah, what? When I first signed on my initial interest for this, it was to register to get 2 sets of JUST the PCB... now we're saying that's not the case?
I can swing the originally estimated $30/set (or ever $50 if it's climbed a bit), but I SURE can't swing $300.

>_> If it's $300 or nothing, I'm going to have to go with nothing.

[OrangeJewce]

I am getting really tired of saying there won't be a PCB only buy. That isn't going to happen. Stop asking. We are not going to split initial order. Everyone will get the same price, regardless of whether you want a case or not. After the initial buy the designs will be released under GPL and then you are free to do a PCB buy whenever or however you like.

Woah, what? When I first signed on my initial interest for this, it was to register to get 2 sets of JUST the PCB... now we're saying that's not the case?
I can swing the originally estimated $30/set (or ever $50 if it's climbed a bit), but I SURE can't swing $300.

>_> If it's $300 or nothing, I'm going to have to go with nothing.

What I'm saying is we won't be having a pre-buy that will be PCB only. I apologize for the confusion. You will be able to order only PCBs when the official buy begins.

Cheers,

[OrangeJewce]

Obviously you will need Teensy's as well.

Cheers,

[Icarium]

I am getting really tired of saying there won't be a PCB only buy. That isn't going to happen. Stop asking. We are not going to split initial order. Everyone will get the same price, regardless of whether you want a case or not. After the initial buy the designs will be released under GPL and then you are free to do a PCB buy whenever or however you like.

Hm.

I remember saying the exact same thing a few weeks back. That there will be one big group buy to get prices down.

But if we consider this in detail the keyboard has the following parts:
1. PCB
2. Electronics components
3. Case
4. Switches
5. Keycaps

Looking at these I would say that:
1. Should definitely be a group buy. There should be huge savings.
2. Cost almost nothing and remembering the phantom there was barely a price difference.
3. Is not even planned but it is unlikely that people make their own
4. A group buy might be beneficial but we have those all the time anyway. (Thanks, 7bit)
5. We have group buys for those, and quite a lot because people have widely varying preferences. A specific group buy to get the caps necessary for this project might be beneficial.

This leads me to believe that the amount of money being lost because a few people will not participate in a group buy for case or caps to be relatively small.

On the other hand splitting the group buys up makes them more manageable and will get keyboards to people faster.

Therefor I now judge the overall outcome of running a PCB only group buy immediately to be positive.

[OrangeJewce]

I will say this one more time,

There will be no separate, pre-buy for PCBs only. This is the sole reason the PCB designs have not been made public yet.

You are basing your logic on...absolutely nothing with regards to this buy. There are a LOT of people who would just cop for pcbs now. We wouldn't be getting this silly request so much if that weren't true. This would adversely split the population of people who want the PCB only vs. those who want the whole kit. One purchase lowers the cost for everyone over two purchases, especially one that will be front loaded because there is no ETA on the official case.

Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen.

Cheers,

[litster]

I will say this one more time,

There will be no separate, pre-buy for PCBs only. This is the sole reason the PCB designs have not been made public yet.

You are basing your logic on...absolutely nothing with regards to this buy. There are a LOT of people who would just cop for pcbs now. We wouldn't be getting this silly request so much if that weren't true. This would adversely split the population of people who want the PCB only vs. those who want the whole kit. One purchase lowers the cost for everyone over two purchases, especially one that will be front loaded because there is no ETA on the official case.

Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen.

Cheers,

Why are you so sure there won't be a PCB only gb? Are the the group buy organizer? Are you holding the PCB design and not releasing it until we have a full group buy up together? Did you design the PCB?

[lowkey144]

@litster

Bpiphany designed the PCBs, but Jewce has been with the project from the start and is one of the primary organizers and helped write the remapping software.

[bpiphany]

I'm actually not sure if he's been doing anything but whining... I would start a PCB group buy only just in spite if I had the time to do the effort ;D

[dirge]

This is getting close to imploding on itself. We need to elect someone who's actually going to do the work as the voice of reason.

I'd love to see Dox give some guidance.

Lets settle things down people, we're all pushing towards the same thing.

[OrangeJewce]

I'm actually not sure if he's been doing anything but whining... I would start a PCB group buy only just in spite if I had the time to do the effort ;D

I have been working. I have not put any code on Codeplex because I don't want to post something that's not actually useable right now. I have every intention of putting the project on Codeplex. Two months went by and haven't posted anything? Yeah that's happened before for other people working on this project too.

EDIT: I'm recanting some things because dirge is right.

I apologize to biphany, I did not mean to impugn.

Cheers,

[Icarium]

One purchase lowers the cost for everyone over two purchases, especially one that will be front loaded because there is no ETA on the official case.

This is where we apparently disagree.

Maybe I need to be more verbose:
1. PCB: I want a group buy for this. ONE! This means everybody who wants one should get it NOW. I don't think that people who want a kit will mind getting it in several parts, they want to make sure that they get all the components.

2. Electronics components: There are barely any savings here because we don't need many parts. If a PCB group buy happens it is very likely that somebody will organize a parts group buy. Somebody actually already tried on GH.

3. Case: There are currently no plans for one so it will take a while anyway. But due to all the complications it is unlikely that you will lose a lot of interest because of island solutions.

4. Switches: You won't get better results than 7bit's group buys with hundreds of switches.

5. Keycaps: Again you won't lose a lot of interest until this group buy is ready because you need very specific parts which will be hard to get anyway and people will just use temporary solutions instead.


That being said, I would most like to see group buy for PCB and electronics parts. bpiphany has recently done exactly that for his custom Filco controller and did a splendid job.

[litster]

Getting a PCB only gb going would be a good idea. Once you get to 30 PCBs, the price does not go much lower, IIRC from the phantom gb. And bpiphany's design is so awesome that one PCB works for both sides. So you have to get 2 for a full keyboard. Only 15 PCB pairs will get you to a very good deal. Teensy maybe we can ask BiNi to get them for us. BiNi can drive to there to pick up and has gotten us a good price last time. Or people just order directly.

The bigger problem is, as with other GBs, is money collection, and PayPal/IRS (for USA anyway). EU folks may work around with bank transfer. NA folks will need to do PP, or personal checks or cashier's check.

Lastly is distribution responsibility.

[bpiphany]

I should perhaps just put the gerbers on github, sit back, and enjoy the havoc =D

But no, I'm going to get drunk instead! Great thursday..

[Soarer]

I should perhaps just put the gerbers on github, sit back, and enjoy the havoc =D

But no, I'm going to get drunk instead! Great thursday..

Helan går!

[OrangeJewce]

Do as you wish. I'm going back to the UI hole from whence I came. Will post again when I have a codeplex or github link.

Cheers,

[litster]

@litster

Bpiphany designed the PCBs, but Jewce has been with the project from the start and is one of the primary organizers and helped write the remapping software.

I know bp designed the PCB. He did send me a pair of PCBs for testing and case design. I was just being a jerk, asking the obvious questions how OJ seems to be dictating how the group buy should work when he isn't running the group buy and have no ability to print PCBs.

[dirge]

Where will the volume discounts be? Case and PCB realistically.

Teensy and components, to save the sanity of any group buy organiser counting each and everyone of these and sending them out isn't worth the volume discount against the effort put in.

Switches, 7bit is the man, as he's not handling distribution of everything in one package we're not going to save anything, in fact the organiser would just be reshipping what he's already sent out.

Keycaps, I think having an agreed design that the majority is happy with would be a start here. I've always liked the idea of qwerkeys for this, layers engraved on the front of the cap rather than the top would really look nice, but that's just my personal preference, anything would do in reality.

Not saying we should do any of these, just pointing out things as I see them

[OrangeJewce]

@litster

Bpiphany designed the PCBs, but Jewce has been with the project from the start and is one of the primary organizers and helped write the remapping software.

I know bp designed the PCB. He did send me a pair of PCBs for testing and case design. I was just being a jerk, asking the obvious questions how OJ seems to be dictating how the group buy should work when he isn't running the group buy and have no ability to print PCBs.

I'm sorry again for the overtones. I would like to go through all the posts and find when this was first talked about and hand that over. I'm just going to back off completely and let you guys do whatever you want with the GB situation. Apparently there has been a huge misunderstanding on my part, so I'm going to completely refocus solely on putting out a great UI for you guys.

I'm sorry again.

Cheers,

EDIT:
P.S.
The whole idea of there not being a pre-buy came from the original thread on GH, first post that stated what would be included. No explicit provision for not doing a separate buy was forgone. So I'm in the wrong here.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780.0

[judascleric]

I have all my components and switches in hand. I am interested in hacking on the firmware and hardware before I have a full keyboard, so I would appreciate getting the PCBs (and/or the kicad files) before getting a case or keycaps.

That said, I'd like to see some discussion to help progress the case design and logistics because it seems like it is a long way from completion. There has been one or two iterations on a 3D printed case and a laser-cut acrylic case that has resulted in a physical version. I haven't heard any serious discussion of how either one of those will be reproduced 200+ times in a cost-effective way. Does anyone have experience with this? How were the plates done for the Phantoms? What sort of volume is needed to have commercially made mold-formed copies from 3D printed cases? Are home-made molds feasible (both in molding accuracy and the time to create copies using the mold)?

As for the current 3D printed case design, does it need more iteration? Do the wider keys need stabilizers? If so, have they been tried on the plate layer of the current case?

[JesuswasaZombie]

My Kinesis doesn't have stabs so I'm not sure this needs them

[webwit]

I came through GH, which I found via key64.org which I googled after seeing a comment on a youtube video of the TrulyErgonomic which was in the sidebar when I looked at several Kinesis videos that I stumbled upon during my (days long) search for the perfect keyboard which began when I was disappointed with the TypeMatrix I ordered after my laptop keycaps had become wiggly because I tried to physically reorder them to suit the Colemak layout which I decided to adopt when I realized the inefficiency of qwerty for comfortable typing which I figured I would be doing lots of as I have decided to learn python.

And breathe in!

[AloisiusFauxly]

Thinking about the case, is the plate necessary? If you went with PCB mount switches, you could eliminate the plate which seems like an annoying/expensive piece to get machined. If you wanted to pound on the keys a bit more, you could drill out holes in a piece of acrylic wherever leads poked through the board and sit the PCB right on top of it, like so:

Spoiler:

I'm not suggesting going this route for the main case buy, just for my own.

[Vierax]

PCB mount means more than 160 extra holes to drill and this is a cost. Moreover you can see on the 7bit's MX switches GB thread that plate mounted MX might be cheaper than PCB's which can represent a 15$ extra cost (approx.)

The plate protects your PCB from external aggressions like soda or whatever suspicious liquid projections or cigarette ashes… It maintain the switches strongly than PCB mount pins which are known to break easier after some gamer's intensive stress test.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Yeah all that makes sense. I've gotta say I really like the yoga mat "case" that ic07 is rocking though.

[bpiphany]

All the holes for PCB mounting is there, almost.. I was so focused on making the board working with Dox's case design that I scrapped the stabilizer mount holes for the thumb keys =P That was perhaps a bit unneccesary. But the rest of them are there. There is only an extra cost if you do more than 1000 holes at pcbwing where they were made.

There are also holes for through hole diodes, both within switches and outside switches, as well as pads for SMD diodes on both sides of the PCB. The PCB is compatible with all types of Cherry MX switches =)

[dox]

Welcome gdaian . Lol. Good luck with python, it's an amazing amount of fun .

About the rest, FWIW, I'm good with whatever, as long as I can only get the pieces I still need when it happens . It'd be cool to hear more discussion on case options, even though I may not need one. That's really the only thing we're missing besides organization (and bpiphany's instructions on getting the PCBs when it's time for that) (and some touch up stuff, like instructions (me and litster?) and better code documentation (coming..!)) (can't thing of anything else at the moment).

I haven't finalized the plate laminate case design but I think we could use litster's design for the group buy (if he agree). The .stl/step files on the website are the one I used to order my case from shapeways. They are usable as they are if anyone want to go that way.

[litster]

I haven't finalized the plate laminate case design but I think we could use litster's design for the group buy (if he agree). The .stl/step files on the website are the one I used to order my case from shapeways. They are usable as they are if anyone want to go that way.

I have a few changes I need to make to the drawings, but that should be quick when I find time to do it. After that I can send my drawings to Dox to put them up on ergodox.org. I haven't spent more time to figure out how to do legs for the case though. as it is now, the two halves lay flat on desk surface. It maybe as simple as getting rubber feet of different sizes and height and make it fit your personal preference.

That doesn't cover the actual manufacturing of the cases though. There are mail order custom laser cut shops like http://www.pololu.com/. I didn't use them for my phantom cases mainly because it was way more expensive to do a one-off prototype with them to verify.

[AloisiusFauxly]

I haven't spent more time to figure out how to do legs for the case though. as it is now, the two halves lay flat on desk surface. It maybe as simple as getting rubber feet of different sizes and height and make it fit your personal preference.

Were I to do my own case, I was thinking about using hex bolts with rubber domes on the end and either tapping holes or embedding a nut/sleeve. But I don't know how much overhead in terms of parts and machining cost that would incur.

[lowkey144]

Were I to do my own case, I was thinking about using hex bolts with rubber domes on the end and either tapping holes or embedding a nut/sleeve. But I don't know how much overhead in terms of parts and machining cost that would incur.

Hmm, this seems like a relatively easy thing to do after the fact with the standard case. If no case is offered with the group buy I will probably make my own out of maple and black walnut, I think it will be a nice visual contrast, but obviously everyone will have to pursue their own solution on a case by case basis... /pun.

[judascleric]

I am planning to do a steep tenting in the 30-40 degree range. My plan for that was to make a pair of stands out of acrylic. Really simple, just a couple bends in a 1/4" piece. Something like this sketch:

Spoiler:

standsketch_sm.jpg (33.64 KiB) Viewed 7447 times