(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[andrewjoy]

I have ordered a few different filaments to try out PLA / ABS / Nylon / Polyester, will print clips in each and take a hammer to them to test.

give a PETG a try too thats quite impact resistant , i would buy you a roll but i have no money at the moment until pay day

[lot_lizard]

give a PETG a try too thats quite impact resistant , i would buy you a roll but i have no money at the moment until pay day

The "Polyester" I mentioned above is really Copolyester (was a bad choice in terms on my part). I picked up the following based on research, filament size (went 2.85 to avoid complications), and they happen to have at the place I ordered the other spools. I believe it is PETG. Let me know your thoughts. I really have appreciated the suggestions. I'm obviously weak in this space, and you guys are obviously not

http://shop3duniverse.com/collections/c ... lament-285

[andrewjoy]

Colourfab xt is a brand name for modified PETG same as edge from E3D

all the Ultimaker boys swear by it ( the XT that is )

[lot_lizard]

On the actual "business" side of the house, I just want to prep folks for the expected behavior later with the group buy. I have created an LLC for the sale (easier for me to keep up with for tax purposes later), and created a PayPal store front to handle the invoicing tied to the LLC. I have contacted PayPal, and we won't get limited (locked account) during our activity because of additional up front vetting I have done with them.

Unfortunately, they are going to hit us with their typical fees, but there really isn't a proper way around this (regardless of the CC processor in some capacity), without setting up an ACH process. I know ACH gets "funny" with you folks overseas, so we are opting for simplicity.

Again, we are still operating as a break even group buy, but don't want anyone to be surprised by the 3.79% hit that PayPal imposes. I would prefer convenience on this end (consider it my fee). My taxes are already wildly complicated, and don't want too much more pain there than what I have to deal with already.

As we get closer, we will establish a dedicated Euro shipping proxy. I will ship all Euro (and likely Asia) orders to our shipping proxy via sea freight. He will then forward your packages on. When you place your order, I will ask him what the shipment cost will be to forward on, and invoice you as a "sea freight + forwarding post charge". It should save everyone considerably. One of the reasons I mention... We might adopt a policy where you pay him instead of me, and he forwards the order + sea freight amount to me (keeping the forwarding shipping costs). It might potentially save some of you additional international PayPal fees (I know it varies by country as to the extra tariff imposed by PayPal).

Still needs investigation, but something to chew on. This portion tends to a get a bit complicated unfortunately, but very manageable if well planned

[pyrelink]

LLC makes a lot of sense for this. I don't mind the paying the PayPal fees to keep your taxes simpler.

[lot_lizard]

Talked to our rubber and foam suppliers (two different sources unfortunately, but the "best of breed"). They are sending me SEVERAL samples of various thicknesses to play with, and should be delivered early next week. I am very confident I can work out the foam layer in the coming couple weeks (even if unexpected travel arises).

I think once we see the PCB and controller changes work, we are in a comfortable space to collect money with a margin of $5. I have multiple working prototypes, but none are "the final". If you budgeting, plan on $145 being the price of the full "kit" minus switches (includes all PayPal fees). Again, this might be lower, but setting worst-case expectation.

For the stabilizer clips on the "wired" keys, I am going to refactor the method for attachment. I am planning on Nylon being the material of choice for a variety of reasons, and will experiment with a "snap-in from the top" method in lieu of screws from below. Part of it is the retro-fitting of previous Model F keyboards that need clip replacements, but the other bit being if anyone wants to move from Model M to F wire stabilizer thickness in the future. There are numerous methods that all achieve a similar end result, but we are looking for simplicity and cost effectiveness now and in the future as a one-off.

The other bit to refactor is the spacers on the sides of the assembly. If you recall the Model F foam, it is adhered on the edges as a debris shield. I am going to extend the plastic spacer inside the assembly to function the same way (avoiding any adhesive on our foam, but achieving the same result).

SIDE NOTE: I am still using the stainless SSK exclusively, and couldn't be happier. It is just "lovely", and literally might be the best keyboard I have used. I want to temper my comments because I am certainly not trying to be a salesman... but "it is fucking nice".

[Techno Trousers]

This all sounds great, lizard. I feel like we'll be getting something truly special at a price that's very reasonable. I'm interested to see how the snap-in stabilizers will look. Is there going to be enough plate space left to create all the holes where they will be needed?

[lot_lizard]

Is there going to be enough plate space left to create all the holes where they will be needed?

This is in reference to all the holes for the legacy wire stabilzer clips? I believe the answer is yes. I still need to work out the right shift, enter, ISO enter, and backspace stabilizers for the older key compatibility, but I believe the answer is "all is well". If not, we will produce special stabilizer clips where needed (the beauty of it being a print vs mold or extrusion).


BTW... I seldom look at this stuff, but just noticed we are approaching our 1k post in the thread with 25+k views. For giggles... The 1k post gets a fun surprise on the group buy (to be revealed later when I figure out wtf to do about it). No multi-posts to cheat!!!

Happy to see all the participation. Makes the effort worthwhile.

[Techno Trousers]

Is there going to be enough plate space left to create all the holes where they will be needed?

This is in reference to all the holes for the legacy wire stabilzer clips? I believe the answer is yes. I still need to work out the right shift, enter, ISO enter, and backspace stabilizers for the older key compatibility, but I believe the answer is "all is well". If not, we will produce special stabilizer clips where needed (the beauty of it being a print vs mold or extrusion).

Yes, I was thinking especially about the cases where the F keys had stabilizers on the left, and the corresponding M keys have them on the right. Like the numpad enter and +, and ISO enter. I know the M barrel plates never had actual holes for their stabilizers, so I wasn't sure if their placement would be an issue.

[Vizir]

$145 approx including shipping? are you shipping from europe or NA?

did i win?

[regack]

$145 approx including shipping? are you shipping from europe or NA?

did i win?

I think the idea is to establish an EU proxy to receive the larger sea freight shipment, then distribute within EU countries for lower overall shipping costs.

[fohat]

This is in reference to all the holes for the legacy wire stabilzer clips? I believe the answer is yes. I still need to work out the right shift, enter, ISO enter, and backspace stabilizers for the older key compatibility,

I was thinking especially about the cases where the F keys had stabilizers on the left, and the corresponding M keys have them on the right. Like the numpad enter and +, and ISO enter.

Shift keys, Backspace, and ISO Enter on the F had wires, along with Space bar, of course. I think that there was a discussion recently and no one had actually found an ANSI Enter with a wire. On the numpad, the "0" has the tabs at the bottom, and the tall 2u key at the lower right (originally "+" but we all probably use it for Enter) has tabs on the right on the F.

Unless somebody is going to start making F-style keys and wires, I think that it would be a lot easier if you focused on M-style keys since they are far more cheap and common.

[E TwentyNine]

Unless somebody is going to start making F-style keys and wires, I think that it would be a lot easier if you focused on M-style keys since they are far more cheap and common.

Agreed. Think it's a lot of work to add support for wire stabs when insert stabs can work fine, and there are very few who would want and have wire stabilized key sets.

Maybe someone could print a pin that could be glued in the empty second stem on the old wire stab keys to make them compatible with insert stabs.

[Techno Trousers]

Well, I may be the main one hoping to use Model F stabilized keys, but I really love the ones with graphic-only legends, and it seems sad to make them obsolete when we're close to having an ultimate plate layout that would support every BS key type. If it's truly impractical, though, then of course it should be abandoned.

[fohat]

Maybe someone could print a pin that could be glued in the empty second stem on the old wire stab keys to make them compatible with insert stabs.

Making it would be trivial, but gluing it in place to the exact tolerance might prove tricky.

Well, I may be the main one hoping to use Model F stabilized keys, but I really love the ones with graphic-only legends, and it seems sad to make them obsolete when we're close to having an ultimate plate layout that would support every BS key type. If it's truly impractical, though, then of course it should be abandoned.

I think that the "mix-and-match" aspect is problematic, for example, there are no ANSI Enters to match the Shifts, as far as I know.

[Techno Trousers]

I think that the "mix-and-match" aspect is problematic, for example, there are no ANSI Enters to match the Shifts, as far as I know.

It's true it won't be 100% graphic only for ANSI, but I don't mind.

[E TwentyNine]

Well, I may be the main one hoping to use Model F stabilized keys, but I really love the ones with graphic-only legends, and it seems sad to make them obsolete when we're close to having an ultimate plate layout that would support every BS key type. If it's truly impractical, though, then of course it should be abandoned.

I could've sworn at least one of my 101 terminal M's has graphics only tab, shift, backspace, maybe enter?

And the M-122's often have graphic only keys.

Which keys in particular?

[E TwentyNine]

Maybe someone could print a pin that could be glued in the empty second stem on the old wire stab keys to make them compatible with insert stabs.

Making it would be trivial, but gluing it in place to the exact tolerance might prove tricky.

Make a little mushroom looking thing so it fits snug in the barrel.

I've used the old style keys missing the wire and they're usable. The barrel itself provides lateral stability.

[lot_lizard]

Make a little mushroom looking thing so it fits snug in the barrel.

I like this idea, but you will lose ~.7mm in full key travel on the bottom end. It has the advantage of turning any F key into a M-stabilizer style (not only for our project) with minimal effort, and avoids the need to even fix broken F clips on legacy boards. But again, you will shorten the key stroke on the bottom end.


Certainly something easy to mock up and try. I will have Nylon filament in a few days

[Techno Trousers]

Well, I may be the main one hoping to use Model F stabilized keys, but I really love the ones with graphic-only legends, and it seems sad to make them obsolete when we're close to having an ultimate plate layout that would support every BS key type. If it's truly impractical, though, then of course it should be abandoned.

I could've sworn at least one of my 101 terminal M's has graphics only tab, shift, backspace, maybe enter?

And the M-122's often have graphic only keys.

Which keys in particular?

I want to use short left shift, right shift, tab, caps lock, and backspace from my F-122s. Plus the wire stabilized zero key on the keypad.

[E TwentyNine]

I want to use short left shift, right shift, tab, caps lock, and backspace from my F-122s. Plus the wire stabilized zero key on the keypad.

All the graphic ones exist on M-122's and use insert stabs. It's possible to accomplish what you want without going the wire stab route.

[lot_lizard]

Just met with our box manufacturer, and he provided me with a protoype. I have few things to work out and improve about it, but the design and fabrication are certainly well executed. The idea would be to have one size box to hold both the full-size and SSK, with the standard support inside just being flipped to accommodate the difference

A good start... It is certainly secure

Box sealed up

image.jpeg (720.91 KiB) Viewed 5281 times

Full-size secured nicely

image.jpeg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 5281 times

Full-size with supports

image.jpeg (959.02 KiB) Viewed 5281 times

Support structure

image.jpeg (1.07 MiB) Viewed 5281 times

SSK with flipped supports

image.jpeg (936.38 KiB) Viewed 5281 times

[fohat]

All the graphic ones exist on M-122's and use insert stabs. It's possible to accomplish what you want without going the wire stab route.

I think that he was saying that he likes the wires. There is some consensus that the F wires are lighter to the feel.

[E TwentyNine]

Just met with our box manufacturer, and he provided me with a protoype.

Wouldn't it "pivot" around without the front secured? Should the cardboard angle down there?

[E TwentyNine]

All the graphic ones exist on M-122's and use insert stabs. It's possible to accomplish what you want without going the wire stab route.

I think that he was saying that he likes the wires. There is some consensus that the F wires are lighter to the feel.

Yeah, I never bought that. I'd argue that most wouldn't know the difference in a blind test, and any negligible difference wouldn't be noticed on keys you rarely hit.

[Techno Trousers]

All the graphic ones exist on M-122's and use insert stabs. It's possible to accomplish what you want without going the wire stab route.

I think that he was saying that he likes the wires. There is some consensus that the F wires are lighter to the feel.

Yeah, I never bought that. I'd argue that most wouldn't know the difference in a blind test, and any negligible difference wouldn't be noticed on keys you rarely hit.

Well, the main thing is I'm sacrificing two F-122s to this project, so I'd like to use caps from those if I can. If not, I'll use the regular M keys, since I don't want to throw more money at acquiring some M-122s just for a few caps.

[Techno Trousers]

The box looks awesome, lizard, and the flippable support system is genius!

[lot_lizard]

Just met with our box manufacturer, and he provided me with a protoype.

Wouldn't it "pivot" around without the front secured? Should the cardboard angle down there?

The front and back are secured, but I just didn't show those inserts. As far as pivoting though, the tolerance is pretty tight on the sides regardless (I struggle to slide it, let alone twist). It's a little tank, and much more impressive in person. I will try to take a pic showing the gauge difference of it with conventional cardboard. They did better than I expected. Now impress me with the price

EDIT: Y-axis support inserts below. 2 shown at 13.5mm combined thickness (16.5mm total counting the box itself). I did measure, and USPS Priority Mail large flat rate boxes are 1.5mm thick, whereas these are 3mm. I still need to weigh a few factors yet (can they be bricked evenly on palette, what's the domestic charge and would another inch saved make a substantial difference, foam vs cardboard inserts, etc... But again, more promising on the first pass than I expected. Price will certainly be a driving force, but I do want these shipped secured. The usable keyboard box for later is just a bonus

image.jpeg (1.04 MiB) Viewed 5186 times

[regack]

Just met with our box manufacturer, and he provided me with a protoype.

Wouldn't it "pivot" around without the front secured? Should the cardboard angle down there?

The front and back are secured, but I just didn't show those inserts. As far as pivoting though, the tolerance is pretty tight on the sides regardless (I struggle to slide it, let alone twist). It's a little tank, and much more impressive in person. I will try to take a pic showing the gauge difference of it with conventional cardboard. They did better than I expected. Now impress me with the price

EDIT: Y-axis support inserts below. 2 shown at 13.5mm combined thickness (16.5mm total counting the box itself). I did measure, and USPS Priority Mail large flat rate boxes are 1.5mm thick, whereas these are 3mm. I still need to weigh a few factors yet (can they be bricked evenly on palette, what's the domestic charge and would another inch saved make a substantial difference, foam vs cardboard inserts, etc... But again, more promising on the first pass than I expected. Price will certainly be a driving force, but I do want these shipped secured. The usable keyboard box for later is just a bonus

image.jpeg

Have you tried the fitment with the plate/barrel assembly on it's own, or just the shell casings?

[lot_lizard]

Have you tried the fitment with the plate/barrel assembly on it's own, or just the shell casings?

Just a full keyboard so far. The assembly by itself would need to be bubble wrapped (etc) to fill the difference. This is just to experiment if some box could be useful afterwards without inflating cost much. We may find that shipping differences make it less than ideal (production costs should be similar regardless).


I do work with these people on a very small scale with my day job. We would be priced according to them wanting to help that business relationship vs. some unknown keyboard yahoos. It's obviously not related to my day job, but I think he is viewing it as the equivalent of taking me out to golf for the day (ethical bribery). We'll see...