deskthority

Posted: **10 May 2017, 19:59**

I had a bit of silicone sealant, so I put a very small, 1-2mm diameter drop of it onto the far end of the barrel - between that "7" stamp and the edge.

Surprisingly, this made rebound practically silent.
SHOCK VIDEO

Don't know how long the sealant will hold before it starts crumbling or just peels off the barrel plastic. In video it looks like only the TWANG is missing - but actually it's much quieter, may be a bit louder than rubber dome keyboard I have. Comparable to the beamspring.
Click on keypress is also a bit quieter - because the paddle has less to travel now. Tactile feedback is mostly there. But the rebound is ALMOST SILENT!

Posted: **10 May 2017, 23:40**

What a staggering idea!

In the US there is a product called "Shoe Goo" made for repairing the soles of rubber shoes and it is amazingly strong and durable. I think that I will try your mod with that product on an F AT rebuild that I hope to do soon.

Presumably the key to success is getting a consistent size and shape of bumper on every barrel. I will use 2 dots to gain a wider contact area.

Too bad that barrels have become a precious commodity with lot_lizard's project, it will be with trepidation that I mess with them.

Posted: **11 May 2017, 00:23**

fohat wrote: What a staggering idea!

In the US there is a product called "Shoe Goo" made for repairing the soles of rubber shoes and it is amazingly strong and durable. I think that I will try your mod with that product on an F AT rebuild that I hope to do soon.

Reading about it I suspect it to be silicone-based

fohat wrote: Presumably the key to success is getting a consistent size and shape of bumper on every barrel. I will use 2 dots to gain a wider contact area.

Disclosure - I wasn't too careful with consistency and the effect was about the same, not much difference. May be even really tiny drops will work.
I don't know why I didn't make a photo of actual barrels, and I'm too lazy to disassemble everything just for the photo

My biggest fear is that the bead unsticks from the barrel in a week of active use and jams the key, actually. Or will disintegrate into dust. Barrels themselves won't suffer.

fohat wrote: Too bad that barrels have become a precious commodity with lot_lizard's project, it will be with trepidation that I mess with them.

Well, Ellipse can produce them so the supply is much less limited now.
And for phase 2 this can be incorporated into design even.
Also that part is relatively unloaded (walls there are very thin), so you can probably even cut a slot there and not suffer.
Actually, you can probably just cut that part off - couple of mm of it, anyways - and let paddle hit the foam. Not sure how long the foam will withstand those hits though

Posted: **11 May 2017, 02:52**

DMA wrote:
My biggest fear is that the bead unsticks from the barrel in a week of active use and jams the key

Unless there is a problem with Shoe Goo adhering to the barrel, it is an amazing product. I have used it since the late 1980s.

I have re-surfaced soles of shoes with it and literally continued walking on them for years. If anything, it is sometimes stronger and longer-wearing than the originals.

Posted: **11 May 2017, 03:59**

I strongly disapprove of this thread

Posted: **11 May 2017, 04:37**

Interesting! So the silicone dot just absorbs the impact and vibration of the flipper coming back up, right?

Lot_lizard had talked about mass producing barrels in the future for the "MF flat," and they would be backward compatible with current barrels. I think it would be worth an experiment to drill a small hole in that flat part of the barrel, and insert a slightly domed silicone plug that would serve the same function. That should last pretty much indefinitely, and the holes could be made a part of the barrels.

For those, like red and probably me, who prefer the full bodied original sound, we could simply leave out the insert and retain the "classic" noise level. I always like things that can be tuned to individual taste. Having a viable noise reduction method would definitely widen the appeal of the MF flat!

Posted: **11 May 2017, 06:16**

Techno Trousers wrote: Interesting! So the silicone dot just absorbs the impact and vibration of the flipper coming back up, right?

It does something! I don't know what, exactly. May be it just reduces the contact area and metal (well, metal probably won't - ABS) ball will work just as well.

Techno Trousers wrote: barrels [snip] for the "MF flat," and they would be backward compatible

I doubt they will be. If you look closely, the "horizontal" part of the barrel is bent upwards. Like sneaker soles, y'know. But that doesn't matter much - Ellipse can bake more, just needs to be persuaded to sell them cheaper.

Silicone plug idea is good - I'll probably do it by pouring silicone into that hole and leaving it to dry. No much difference between 1 and 0.5mm I think, so precision is not needed

I'm not sure about silicone longevity though - poured or separately fabbed.
I will also leave my home copy loud. The office one, on the other hand.. I'll also try foam layer BELOW the PCB so that activation click is also dampened. But that will only be possible with MF - you just can't do it with F122 or XT.

Posted: **11 May 2017, 09:36**

__red__ wrote: I strongly disapprove of this thread

Seconded.

sad-1533965_1280.jpg

Posted: **11 May 2017, 19:14**

just_add_coffee wrote:
__red__ wrote: I strongly disapprove of this thread
Seconded.

Gentlemen. It only silences the rebound. Why do you even need TWO clicks on every keypress?

Posted: **11 May 2017, 20:21**

I for one would love a quieter buckling spring keyboard, as I would like to use it at work.

Posted: **11 May 2017, 22:35**

I work in an open-plan office, with lots of very noisy phone conversations all around, all day long. I have no compunction to silence the Kalashnikov clatter from my IBM 5291 in such an environment!

Posted: **12 May 2017, 00:27**

DMA wrote:
just_add_coffee wrote:
__red__ wrote: I strongly disapprove of this thread
Seconded.
Gentlemen. It only silences the rebound. Why do you even need TWO clicks on every keypress?

This.

It's almost the same principle than Hypersphere's rings, and I like it.

Could we imagine a group-buy of pre-silenced barrels (or pre-silenced hammers)?

Then you could eventually put them on Ebay, at a fair price…

Posted: **12 May 2017, 09:08**

DMA wrote: Gentlemen. It only silences the rebound. Why do you even need TWO clicks on every keypress?

Because FIVE would be lunacy.

Seriously, I'm interested in giving this a try before dismissing it and appreciate you telling us about this.

Posted: **12 May 2017, 11:24**

How about the complete heresy ? (silencing a buckling spring *completely*)
Maybe even by replacing the spring with something else

Posted: **12 May 2017, 14:55**

Laser wrote:How about the complete heresy ? (silencing a buckling spring *completely*)
Maybe even by replacing the spring with something else

Replace the spring with a wet noodle!

Posted: **12 May 2017, 15:29**

How dare you modify a terminal board like that!

Posted: **12 May 2017, 16:48**

Techno Trousers wrote:
Laser wrote:How about the complete heresy ? (silencing a buckling spring *completely*)
Maybe even by replacing the spring with something else
Replace the spring with a wet noodle!

Well I guess a noodle peut boucler, but can not buckle

Posted: **12 May 2017, 18:54**

Laser wrote: How about the complete heresy ? (silencing a buckling spring *completely*)
Maybe even by replacing the spring with something else

That's done already. It's called "rubber dome". Super-quiet. If you want it less quiet - ALPS white, MX clear.. lots of them.

A guy I know actually made a single key switch from those neodymium magnets - one ring and two pucks, to be exact. Absolutely quiet, great tactile response. He never moved to make an actual keyboard though

But single switch was very pleasant. Hall sensor was pretty easy to read too.

Posted: **12 May 2017, 19:34**

DMA wrote: A guy I know actually made a single key switch from those neodymium magnets - one ring and two pucks, to be exact. Absolutely quiet, great tactile response. He never moved to make an actual keyboard though
But single switch was very pleasant. Hall sensor was pretty easy to read too.

Ooh, now that's very interesting to read. Do you have the design, or can you reproduce it? If so, I think you should give it straightaway to XMIT in his brand new Hall Effect keyboard revival, round 2 keyboard thread. I'm not a fan of linear switches, so I didn't get in on XMIT's round one. But I know you like capacitive buckling spring as I do, so if you liked the tactile response of that Hall effect switch, I'm betting it would be awesome to have an entire keyboard full of them!

Posted: **12 May 2017, 19:38**

That could be tough to do with a bunch of magnets. They might interfere with the Hall sensors, we'd need to pick sensors carefully to make sure there were no issues. Neodymium magnets are really strong - watch out for nearby credit cards...

DMA do you have any photos of this contraption?

Posted: **12 May 2017, 20:01**

Techno Trousers wrote: If so, I think you should give it straightaway to XMIT in his brand new Hall Effect keyboard revival, round 2 keyboard thread. I'm not a fan of linear switches, so I didn't get in on XMIT's round one. But I know you like capacitive buckling spring as I do, so if you liked the tactile response of that Hall effect switch, I'm betting it would be awesome to have an entire keyboard full of them!

I don't like the idea of "Hall effect keyboard" just for the sake of using Hall effect sensors. They're complex, power-hungry, expensive versions of a reed switch.
I mean for restoration of a historical keyboard you can do it - but to produce new devices using THAT?

The design was easy. Cross-section looks like this:

Code: Select all

  -|-----
=====0  0
  -|-----

Where "-"is a thin-walled plastic tube, "0" is a disc and "|" is a part of a ring. He used ~3(2?)mm thick ~5-6mm hole diameter rings, with fitting disc magnets. I remember he needed to sand the ring from inside to fit a thin-walled tube as a guide.
Simple, really. Not sure about longevity - magnets crammed into place can demagnetize over time. Testing is needed.

Posted: **13 May 2017, 01:24**

DMA wrote:
Techno Trousers wrote: If so, I think you should give it straightaway to XMIT in his brand new Hall Effect keyboard revival, round 2 keyboard thread. I'm not a fan of linear switches, so I didn't get in on XMIT's round one. But I know you like capacitive buckling spring as I do, so if you liked the tactile response of that Hall effect switch, I'm betting it would be awesome to have an entire keyboard full of them!
I don't like the idea of "Hall effect keyboard" just for the sake of using Hall effect sensors. They're complex, power-hungry, expensive versions of a reed switch.
I mean for restoration of a historical keyboard you can do it - but to produce new devices using THAT?

The design was easy. Cross-section looks like this:
Code: Select all
  -|-----
=====0  0
  -|-----
Where "-"is a thin-walled plastic tube, "0" is a disc and "|" is a part of a ring. He used ~3(2?)mm thick ~5-6mm hole diameter rings, with fitting disc magnets. I remember he needed to sand the ring from inside to fit a thin-walled tube as a guide.
Simple, really. Not sure about longevity - magnets crammed into place can demagnetize over time. Testing is needed.

Just make them all electromagnetic with programmable resistance. Then someone could put together some prank code that drops all the keys whenever a specific key was pressed. Think of it, dancing keys instead of dancing back light colors, It could just be the next biggest thing in keyboards. Every key switch could function as a seloniod for those interested in maximum feedback.

Posted: **13 May 2017, 01:44**

DMA wrote: I had a bit of silicone sealant, so I put a very small, 1-2mm diameter drop of it onto the far end of the barrel - between that "7" stamp and the edge.

What are you using as a background in your photo?

Posted: **13 May 2017, 01:49**

rsbseb wrote: What are you using as a background in your photo?

Ask Ellipse, it's his photo, I pulled it from The Internet. But, if my eyes serve me well, that's your standard styrofoam packing block.

Posted: **13 May 2017, 08:10**

And I searched for a while on the picture for some hint where you put the sealant

Posted: **13 May 2017, 08:29**

Madhias wrote: And I searched for a while on the picture for some hint where you put the sealant

Posted: **14 May 2017, 01:05**

Because it's time to test macros, had to reassemble keyboard in "all keys" configuration. Snapped a photo!

: DSC_7703.JPG (2.67 MiB) Viewed 77710 times

As you can see, the bead can be pretty large or pretty small - the effect is about the same

Posted: **14 May 2017, 05:44**

I'd really like to hear a recording of typing on that at full speed!

Posted: **14 May 2017, 05:59**

Techno Trousers wrote: I'd really like to hear a recording of typing on that at full speed!

I reviewed the original video and it really looks to me that the phone records everything at the same sound level. So video won't probably be impressive.

iphone's sound meter, right next to the key, shows 66dB keypress and 75 vs 63dB key release sound. 12dB is 4x difference, IIRC.
This is with no foam though - probably with foam added it will be much less dramatic.

Posted: **14 May 2017, 12:07**

What if one silenced the sound of the spring hitting the barrel? Couldn't you just tape a little rubber band on the inside?

deskthority

Buckling spring silencing

Buckling spring silencing

Re: Buckling spring silencing

Re: Buckling spring silencing

Re: Buckling spring silencing