deskthority

Hi

I work for a few months (years ?) on keyboards of my own. I recently posted some pictures on http://forum.bepo.fr where I was advised to post on http://deskthority.net.
Here I discovered Dox work (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/spli ... t1753.html) and Suka work (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-d ... t2534.html) that are close to what I'm looking for.
I present you quickly my first experiment. It's a split keyboard using thumb modifiers and integrating a mouse. It is based on a teensy connected with a PS2 chip from an old keyboard for matrix detection. The keys are from an old wyse keyboard.

It's as a proof of concept for my own purpose, it's a prototype. Dox and Suka made a much cleaner job, I mainly worked with recycled materials.



Layout is not optimized that much. It's mainly a bepo layout (http://bepo.fr)



I upload the code at https://github.com/Bigot/cladeon. You are warned, I code like I solder...

I'm now working on a new version, I hope a bit lighter and more usable.

Always nice to see people making things on their own. Congrats

The upper keys though, aren't they awkward to press being bent like 90 degrees and they are on a vertical surface?

Yes, finally someone trying vertically mounted keys! Like the DataHand. If you move your finger up, it's less effort to tap a key that way then go up and then down.

Front vertical keys are a bit awkward, yes. Mainly because unusal and too close from the last raw. A few milimeters away from horizontal keys would avoid some mistypes when hitting last row. For the next step I will compare this vertical surface with something much like kinesis "bowl" that follow the extension curve of fingers.

More than front vertical row, I'm very pleased with the left and right vertical keys. It's very natural to extend little finger on the right to do a space.

How do you like those joysticks as mice? Can you compare them to a TrackPoint? I'm modding my Kinesis and planning to use the same joystick as this board has (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835) but I also have some PSP joysticks and have considered the full size thumb stick too.

I first tried a kind of psp joystick (like https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9426). The size was good but it was a poor quality one, it was difficult to get it back to zero. I tried to correct hysteresis by software but it then was not enought accurate. I decided to keep it as a scroll button with two speeds. It is on the left of the mouse.

The thumb joystick (like https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9032) is easier to find, there are two on a PS3 controller, and is more constant and robust. I must work a bit more on mouse speed depending on the position of the joystick but it is usable. On the other hand, it is much larger and movements are wider. It was not a problem for me but I'm now looking for something smaller.

Computer trackpoint seems too difficult to use with thumbs (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm- ... t2807.html). Small size, no movement. It's OK for index finger but probably not for thumb. I may test if I found one.

Even if I use every day a kensighton trackball, (It's great !), I didn't wanted to try a blackberry trackball (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9308) Why ? I don't know.

You stated Easypoint (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10835?). It is what I have chosen for my next try (not received yet). Too expensive to my point of view, but it seems to be a really good product. I don't know yet what kind of hat I should use.

At last, I think I will try one day to use a touchpad. I don't know if it is usable with thumbs, I need to test.

Nice job. I like the idea of vertical mounted keys. Can you post a photo with your hands on the keyboard or a typing video?
Keep on.

I don't really have anything to say about this right now but I love it!

Okay, maybe one question that would be good to know for somebody who wants to try something similar:
How did you mount the switches?

Icarium

I had some difficulties to find back the picture I wanted (march 2011) to answer your question. I said DIY...



More recent pictures show the wiring I modified this summer



Everything is glued in a metal box



for the thumbs I used small switch found in used electronic devices soldered on a prototyping PCB



Wires are connected to a PS2 keyboard chip



For the following versions I tried to do something cleaner. I learned a lot looking at what was published on deskthority.

Philpirj, I'm sorry I have no picture or video for the moment. Nevertheless I found some of a previous version.

My first try was this one






It was a bit difficult to hold while typing. I reused the parts for the next version which I wanted to be split.

I tried an orientable version that can be used horizontal or vertical.






It was not rigid enough so I decided to fix it horizontal (my first post)

and to begin again from scratch...

Simply stunning work mate!

Very, very nice. Always good to see something different.

Awesome! Pretty sure it's comfortable to type on, and hands are in relaxed position.

Whoa, this looks a bit like what I'm working on.

You may already know this but something like Shapelock can be useful for a project like this. It seems to have different names in different countries but basically it's a plastic that becomes very soft at 60-100 degrees celcius and becomes solid at room temperature. It's a bitch to work with initially because it can cool down too quickly but it's useful once you get the hang of it.

Thanks a lot for your encouragements!

For Keymonger, is it possible to see what you are working on ? I didn't know Shapelock, looks nice. I maybe will try it if I have an opportunity. I already used Fimo dough to make switch caps but it was old,dry and not very easy to shape. For the moment I mainly test thin metal folding.

Here pictures of the left hand of my last try, an evolution of the previous version. It's not finished yet and right hand is on the way.

I've only been messing around with shapes so I don't have anything to show, but one interesting thing is that you can use Shapelock to create key layouts. If you create a little board of plastic and then soften it, you can press a Cherry MX switch onto it and then wiggle it a bit and then let it cool down, you can create a slot on the board and even make the switches removable.

This one time I made a little something but something went wrong and the plastic bound with the plastic of the Cherry switches and keycaps and it pretty much ruined the keycaps... now I have a Poker keyboard with missing keycaps.

Thanks to hollidays, right hand almost OK.



I began to adapt teensy software. Not finished yet, but promising.

Temporary layout to test physical positions of keys



Example of in situation test

Excellent stuff, what kind of switches are you using in this "bowl" setup ?

wow... you are totally crazy! In a good way, of course.

Really nice work. So how long do we have to wait until we see this in a movie being used by a super villain?

Hoggy and matt3o: I didn't thought about it, but that's true, it could be possible to do a link. Maybe I need to speak about it with my psy therapist.



Sordna : I still use cherry black from an old wyse console keyboard. As for the keycaps. Maybe one day I will switch to MX brown and brand new blank caps but from now on it's just a prototype for fun.

Very cool!! I just love it when ppl build keyboards that are more ergonomic, especially when they are this different! d(^__^)
I also like your no-nonsense hack-and-slash prototyping style. I'm too neat when I build stuff, so it takes me a long time to get it done. <=)

This reminds me a little bit of my current project. It's a complete rebuild of the Logitech G13 gaming keypad (only reusing the PCB (with the LCD attached to it)). It also has a non-staggered half-pipe key layout, Cherry MX (red + some blue) switches, individually curved key columns for each finger, a thumbstick, vertical key for the pinky and a display. Mine has less keys though, as I'm limited by the 25 keys + thumbstick that the G13 firmware supports. The prototype that I'm working on right now will be almost completely adjustable, as I haven't figured out the optimal switch position and keycap profile for each key yet.
Heh, I'm rambling, I apologize for that, just got so excited seeing your work. <=D

Keep it up! *subscribed*

Thanks Nakkor, I couldn't thought that my hobbies could produce such reaction. Maybe you could publish a thread with your work, your ideas. Is your avatar is a picture of what you are working on ?

As I'm waiting for brown switches to achieve my woodboard, I wonder if I could do a nokey-keyboard. My son plays cello, I tried to do a "cellovier" ("Don't worry dad, I already now it will not work, just go head !" ). Pretty sure someone already done something like that.

Hardware of prototype done


and adjusted



Tennsy is now wired (but no picture yet), and I begin to program it. After that I will work a bit more on packaging to hide wires and teensy at the back of the white plate, add a rubber foot...

Maybe I could also add a mousestick (easypoint ?) under the right thumb, will see later.

What kind of layout could be implemented in such stuff ? Apart from being useless, will it be usable ? What would be the learning curve ? Will be probably funny to explore.

jeff wrote:Thanks Nakkor, I couldn't thought that my hobbies could produce such reaction. Maybe you could publish a thread with your work, your ideas. Is your avatar is a picture of what you are working on ?

You're welcome. (^__^) Yes, there will be a work log thread pretty soon (within a month at least(?)). I just have to get off my ass and do it, well not literally cause I'll be sitting at the computer when creating it. ;P

jeff wrote:Is your avatar is a picture of what you are working on ?

Indeed it is. It's a screen grab of an earlier incomplete version of the 3D CAD file (which is still a WIP).

Some questions:
1. How's typing on your keyboard?
2. What do you like the most with it?
3. Is there anything you would like to change?
4. How well does the 4-way thumb sticks work for you? Do you ever feel it might have been better with regular key switches for some key inputs?

jeff,

That's some amazing prototyping and experimenting. There is much to gained from 3-D keyboards.

About that curved keyboard you posted pictures of in December, January, February:
How did you cut the switch holes into the steel mount plate?

Thank you.

wolfv : Mount plate is not made of metal but is a PVC sheet from an old fire exit panel. It's 1.5 mm thick and can be cut with a cutter or a hot tool. As I didn't know how I could, at home, do 100 holes in steel, it was the simpler solution I found. It doesn't flex because of its shape.

Nakkor : I have a real problem, I need to touch things to understand what I want to do but I change of idea more quickly than I can build stuff. That's to say that I don't use my prototypes everyday.

Typing on it is fun. I was really surprised to see how it was easy to start using it, keys are everytime under the finger, lateral keys are very intuitive.

To my point of view, 5-way sticks are much better than buttons for thumbs which are mobile and precise. The shape of the hat could help to find the good stick. I don't know how it could be for other fingers like with the datahand, but for thumbs it's clearly the best solution (for me and for that kind of input device). 4-way stick is maybe better than 5-way to avoid mistypes, because in some case it's difficult to press without pushing away (depends of the position of the stick and the shape of the hat).

If I stopped working on this prototype, it's not because of the keyboard but because of the mouse. The aim of that kind of device is to keep hands in place. I wanted to try the easypoint joystick but I forgot to buy a level converter (3.3 - 5V) so I used a low quality thumb joystick. It's not precise, high hysteresis, in one word unusable, but it was enough for global testing. I'm waiting for an opportunity to buy the missing part.

In any case I will need to rebuilt it from scratch, move some keys, create a smaller case, find a good solution to use it on a desk...

Thanks jeff. I would not have guessed to use PVC sheet. Thanks for the idea .
Have you considered a thumb well? There is a mockup posted on http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42141.0
I want to try a six-key thumbwell.

At first stage I wanted to add keys at the top of fingers as you show on your third picture, maybe using microswitch with long arm (Something like http://fr.farnell.com/itw-switches/19n4 ... /dp/624688 but I don't remember which one I have choosen). I thought it could be interesting for reactive actions such as ESC in VI or ALT-TAB in windows. But I didn't went thru, maybe because I already had too many keys to manage, I didn't need more, don't clearly remember. It still an idea I keep for future usage.

Cherry ML could be clearly a good solution. MX are a bit too big, that has an impact on the size of the package I could do. On the other hand Suka manage this very well with 3D printing...

The thumb well could be interesting to try. As mention on GH, suka did something like that, smaller size. I'm not sure I would appreciate it but I really can't explain why, I need to think a bit more about it and test by myself.

Just go head, create a working prototype, spread pictures, give us your feedback.

Don't know if it could help someone, I created a page with a few hints that I find usefull. It is a work in progress in french but google translation seems OK : http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl ... er_clavier