deskthority

Heh...looks like the font, while hand-drawn, was drawn to look like a font called Gorton, named after the company that built engravers for it: https://aresluna.org/the-hardest-workin ... collection

Anyone else feel like a 6 year old who has been waiting 3 years for Christmas?

Oh absolutely, I check in on this thread every week or so

Any chance we can get an update on production? Thanks!

A great read about the Gorton font jmaynard! Thanks for sharing it.

Does anyone know the font that IBM used on their F122 keyboard labels?

The factory reports that they completed another 20,000 modules in the past few weeks, bringing the total to 100,000 out of the ~150,000 for the current production batch, but they still need to finish the case and the top/bottom inner assembly plates. They are hoping to finish up production and assembly this year as noted earlier.

Here's a video posted a while back on how the cases are made: Given the low volume of the beam spring project (about 1,500 keyboards for what may be the only production batch), all of these modules have to be assembled by hand, including the attachment of the thin metal part to the white part of the module. Buying and setting up automation machines would far exceed the size of the project, for such a relatively small project. Even the Model F barrels are installed by hand on the plates. There still are many machines that help the factory workers, but these keyboards take quite a bit of labor to make.

I know things have taken longer than expected but the factory and I want to make sure everything is as good as possible. The latest examples from a couple months ago are excellent and they used modules from this completed production batch. The modules are the most important part of the beam spring keyboard to get right and I'm glad that I did not approve mass production and assembly until they met my requirements.

Why would anyone share font info with you when you don’t share anything with the community?

Bellend.

Ellipse wrote: 08 Feb 2025, 22:02 The photos show each available layout with the factory keys: ANSI, ISO, Split Shift and 2U Backspace, and Split Shift and Split Backspace.

Here is one photo of each available layout:
2025-02-07_23-38-10.jpg

So is this the final keycap set for the F122? Full set + re-legendable keys for the extra keys?
I vaguely remember that, when I originally ordered this keyboard years ago, it said there would not be any keycaps for the extra keys, so I ordered a set of /dev/tty MT3 keycaps by matt3o from Massdrop, which have been sitting in a box for a long time now.
But I'd be happy to get the keycaps from the picture, and use the spare MT3 set on another keyboard, if the included keycaps are like this.

Looking at my receipt, I chose

Black modifier keys with white text, all other keys white with black text ($39)

So I assume it's going to be that.

But to be clear, am I getting the relegendable keycaps also? I hope I won't just get a partial set not covering all keys...

ngnx wrote: 06 Mar 2025, 16:40 But to be clear, am I getting the relegendable keycaps also? I hope I won't just get a partial set not covering all keys...

You will need to order the re-legendable key caps separately. The included keycaps are only enough to cover the std 104 keyboard layout.

Hi ngnx - the pictured set is one and the same set that was ordered a few years ago for the Round 1 beam spring boards. It is the only set that has ever been offered as part of the production boards. The key set includes all the pictured keys except the transparent relegendables as ritter has correctly noted. That 22 key set covers the 10 left side + 12 keys above the F1-F12 function keys row and is available only as an add on set.

Hi Ellipse,

Any updates to share with us? Thanks!

Wondering if there will be any complications when the keyboards come from the factory

Nothing just yet in terms of a new update. The factory is still working on those remaining parts (module assembly, case parts and top and bottom inner assembly plates) noted with last month's update; they are expected to take several months in total to complete. The expectation is still for these boards to be delivered later this year.

Ellipse wrote: 08 Apr 2025, 04:34 Nothing just yet in terms of a new update. The factory is still working on those remaining parts (module assembly, case parts and top and bottom inner assembly plates) noted with last month's update; they are expected to take several months in total to complete. The expectation is still for these boards to be delivered later this year.

So, are these going to get a 100% tariff price increase when you receive them and ship them out overseas? Or is all money already exchanged?

My personal expectation is that the tariffs will not be a problem by the time these keyboards are ready to ship later this year, so no one will be paying tariffs, since that time is several months away. The keyboards are not ready to ship, so no one should be worrying right now about months into the future.

Everything except the Round 2 Beam spring and the second half of the F122 keyboards) does not have US-based tariffs since they are in stock and were already imported, so I strongly recommend that folks who are considering a brand new Model F or beam spring keyboard look at a stocked keyboard for the fastest shipping option, but a reminder that I cannot change any orders from keyboards that I have already paid the factory for and are currently in production.

The importer pays the import tariffs, if applicable, for goods not currently in the US, so my understanding is that each recipient would not be paying tariffs if I import everything from the factory but they would if the goods were shipped directly from the overseas facility to a US-based customer (something I have not done before). Shipping directly from overseas without entry into the US may be something to consider for the non-US based destinations if tariffs persist for the rest of this year, which again I do not expect. Normally everything ships to me for QC inspections, labeling the serials, printing the dot matrix invoices, and preparing orders that include already-stocked items that arrived as part of previous container shipments (for example, the beam spring key sets and first aid kits).

Of course many sellers of made-to-order type products, crowdfunded Kickstarter-type products, etc. will likely have to wait out these tariffs for goods already in production but not yet imported since they would lose money with each previous sale, so we will have to wait and see the situation later this year as the beam spring keyboards get closer to completion.

Tariff update: as an update, the 8471 code (covering keyboards and other items) appears to have been temporarily exempted from the vast majority of the tariffs per the below update; currently this category remains subject to the 20% level, but not the 145% level: https://content.govdelivery.com/bulleti ... BP-3db9e55

As I mentioned above, as we get closer to the keyboards being completed (later this year) we will have several options to consider if the tariffs are still present, which I do not expect to be the case. Another option to consider is for some folks to consider opting for earlier delivery and I would have just those goods shipped to me with the tariffs, if those folks wanted to cover a portion of the tariffs (with me covering the rest) in exchange for getting the keyboard sooner, but I don't think this will be necessary.

Could you ship some of the keyboards from china to europe so they would not be tariffed twice?

That is something to consider but there are still VAT / other import taxes for Europe regarding goods sent from outside Europe. Since the goods are all made in China, my understanding is that they would be subject to the same duty, not any increased or reduced duty for made in US goods.

I am hoping to avoid doing that because I would not be able to QC each keyboard before shipping, and it would cost more for those opting for this possible option, because we would still have to ship keyboards, product serial labels, first aid kit modules, and other in stock items from my current stock (so there would be two costly international shipments).

My guess is that the additional cost and complication with two shipments may not be much different if I import a subset of the keyboards only for folks who request to cover a portion of the tariffs in exchange for early delivery, since I do not want to charge everyone extra for these keyboards. As can be expected, an importer pays duties on the production cost and not whatever price an item is sold for, so it would be better for me to pay duties on the smaller amount than for goods to ship directly from China to US addresses in a situation with tariffs on the retail price instead of production cost, for example.

Again, not to worry anyone as these keyboards are months away from completion and I do not expect this to be an issue later this year.

Ellipse wrote: 18 Apr 2025, 05:10Again, not to worry anyone as these keyboards are months away from completion and I do not expect this to be an issue later this year.

Unless you're personally arranging for a Luigi situation in regards to Trump, I think it's safe to assume things are going to get much, much worse in a few months. I've actually started to just see this payment as a loss already and if a keyboard happens to reach me I'll just be pleasantly surprised.

It is not helpful to assume that folks will not receive their keyboards because of project delays, tariffs, etc.

The keyboards are all in production and will go out regardless of any tariffs. Production and assembly continue at full speed. Almost all of the several hundred thousand parts have been completed; we are just waiting on the cases, inner assembly plates, and a small number of modules to be completed.

If the keyboards are re-exported out from the US to non-american customers, I think the tariff can be claimed back by the exporter? I believe this is how GST works for us in australia at least.

Yes, good point, in the US that appears to be known as "duty drawback" but it is not easy:

https://www.ups.com/us/en/supplychain/l ... back-guide

This is on Ellipse to pay anyway as he is the one importing them from China.

wobbled wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 00:08 This is on Ellipse to pay anyway as he is the one importing them from China.

Tariffs are paid by the end customer, always. That's how tariffs work. Otherwise companies would sacrifice their profit margins which won't happen. Not here nor anywhere else. If people understood this before voting we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

genericusername57 wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 08:25

wobbled wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 00:08 This is on Ellipse to pay anyway as he is the one importing them from China.

Tariffs are paid by the end customer, always. That's how tariffs work. Otherwise companies would sacrifice their profit margins which won't happen. Not here nor anywhere else. If people understood this before voting we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Technically Joe is the end customer here assuming people have already paid for their products & shipping. You don't need to tell me how tariffs work, I assure you I am perfectly aware, this is on the MAGA voting Americans.

wobbled wrote: 25 Apr 2025, 18:44

genericusername57 wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 08:25

wobbled wrote: 24 Apr 2025, 00:08 This is on Ellipse to pay anyway as he is the one importing them from China.

Tariffs are paid by the end customer, always. That's how tariffs work. Otherwise companies would sacrifice their profit margins which won't happen. Not here nor anywhere else. If people understood this before voting we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Technically Joe is the end customer here assuming people have already paid for their products & shipping. You don't need to tell me how tariffs work, I assure you I am perfectly aware, this is on the MAGA voting Americans.

And when Joe, "the end customer", doesn't have money to pay for the shipment because it's increased in cost by 150% and the money he's got from customer payments won't cover it, it's a question of the customer paying the tariff or not receiving the product.

The end customer is the customer with whom the product ends up. It's right there in the name.

I don’t know why you’re so obsessed with defending this guy, but anyway clearly you don’t know tariffs, allow me to help. I know you swedes don’t really have any great universities so your education may leave something to be desired.

If the boards are already paid for then legally it would be a breach of contract if he holds the board until he gets the additional money.
Now he could have some small text clauses somewhere (which is very ellipse) saying prices can be adjusted at any point to cover these types of issues.

But if not, joe pays it. And if he does have clauses for this stuff then it’s yet another reason not to buy from him.
If customers can’t afford the increase and they opt to cancel then joe eats the entire cost. Him paying the tariffs is probably the smartest move.

You could always just pay it all for him though, seems like something you would do.

All right, ENOUGH!

I don't know why you insist on bashing Ellipse every chance you get, but KNOCK IT OFF! You think the guy's a slimeball. Fine. We get it. You don't have to keep throwing it in his (and our) face!

If you don't think he's a reputable businessman, then don't buy from him. But leave the rest of us alone!

jmaynard wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 17:56 All right, ENOUGH!

I don't know why you insist on bashing Ellipse every chance you get, but KNOCK IT OFF! You think the guy's a slimeball. Fine. We get it. You don't have to keep throwing it in his (and our) face!

If you don't think he's a reputable businessman, then don't buy from him. But leave the rest of us alone!

Or just ignore my comments? No one forces you to read them lmfao.
Go touch some grass.

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14 I don’t know why you’re so obsessed with defending this guy, but anyway clearly you don’t know tariffs, allow me to help. I know you swedes don’t really have any great universities so your education may leave something to be desired.

You are from the US so any comment on education is an instant loss for you. Also, get fucked. And I know that sounds like an insult, but I mean that as a recommendation. You seem angry. It might help.

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14If the boards are already paid for then legally it would be a breach of contract if he holds the board until he gets the additional money.

Wow, I bet that means a lot when the reality of the situation is that there is not enough money to ship the boards in case of prohibitive tarrifs.

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14Now he could have some small text clauses somewhere (which is very ellipse) saying prices can be adjusted at any point to cover these types of issues.

What part of your little, small, dense little brain is having issues to comprehend that in case Joe hasn't got money to pay for the boards that they're not going to get shipped out?

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14But if not, joe pays it.

Unless he hasn't got enough money to do so

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14You could always just pay it all for him though, seems like something you would do.

You seem to think I've got a special relationship to Joe. The only one on this board that has got a special relationship with Joe is you. And you're not above ruining whatever remnants that remain of this forum to let everyone know.

"JuSt IGnOrE mY ComMenTs Bro"

Maybe don't write them. I get the impression that you're at least 12 years old, so act your age.

It's actually amazing how persistent you are. You know that your comments are not wanted by ANYONE. No one gives a fuck about what you think, yet you persist. You get asked to stop, yet you persist. The only reasonable conclusion is that you don't write your comments for the benefit of anyone, you do it because you like it and because you want to, despite no one wanting to read them. I guess you're a true American. Please complete the image by telling me you're Irish or Italian or something.

We have not had a factory video post in a while. This above video shows how the factory adjusts the torque of each bolt for the beam spring keyboard inner assembly. The tool they are using is a torque screwdriver, which allows you to specify the torque and it will let you know if the torque is too high and if the screws are too tight. The purpose of this process is to optimize how tightly the bottom and top inner assemblies are attached to each other. In our research over the past few years to get these keyboards to be in line with IBM's standards, we have found that having a slight looseness to the assembly, as shown in this video, results in a far nicer sound and typing experience. You don't need a torque screwdriver for your own maintenance of these keyboards; you can just back off the tightness a few turns by eyeing it and keep things loose for optimal sound and performance! In general, it should be looser than the point where the plates would start to bend unevenly around the areas of the bolt, where you would see some unevenness of the flat bottom plate.

Regarding the recent discussion, I can't say enough, thanks everyone for your support of these projects. The beam spring boards (and the later Model F project layouts) would not have been possible without the great interest in the original new Model F project. I appreciate folks sticking up for respectful discussion, which was generally the norm while the forums were active back in the day.

It is no surprise that in general (speaking about internet users generally, not about anyone specific), a small number of people think they don’t have a voice in real life and one way to be heard and noticed is to be negative, insulting, and offensive while hiding behind a user name. They have become so toxic that no one would care what they say even if they were right. They don't know it because they often engage the most with other toxic folks who agree with them, or brave folks who speak up, as I happily have seen over the years. While I appreciate this, trolls can't be reasoned with, so it is often best at some point to start to ignore such people and carry on with your life. The block button is quite useful for various forums, as you automatically don't see what they write.

Please rest assured that no projects are at risk of ending due to lack of funds. The terms and conditions of the project, in place well before the beam spring project, do state that all import duties are the responsibility of the buyer, so I would not be out of bounds to follow the earlier suggestion to pass along a small portion of these costs while personally paying for much of these costs, though I strongly disagree that this will still be an issue when the project finishes assembly later this year.

As a reminder, tariffs are paid by the importer directly, whoever the actual importer is, and the importer can choose to pass along these costs in terms of higher prices. Yes, if prices go up then the importer passes along the costs and in effect the buyer pays, indirectly, unless they purchase another good.

If I had these boards ship directly from China to individuals in the US, then the importer is the person who receives the keyboard. In this case, the shipping company (UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.) would collect the import fees from the recipient and remit the funds to the tax authority; the shipper would not be involved in collecting taxes in this example.

If instead I have all the pallets shipped to me, then I would directly pay the tariffs and can choose to pass along costs through higher pricing, etc. Or there could be a hybrid model, where folks could choose either to defray the production cost tariffs for the boards I import, or to have their keyboard ship directly from China and pay tariffs on the sale price instead of production cost. The keyboards HTS code currently appears to note a 20% tariff; many parts of the world are currently used to paying a 20% import tax on the purchase cost of all imported goods, which is far higher than a 20% import tax on a production cost in most cases.

To reiterate, this is all academic discussion at the moment; just thinking out loud and chatting; no one should worry! I do not intend on passing along any additional costs as of now; I do not expect anyone to pay any additional funds to receive what they already paid for. Another option may be to simply raise pricing for future orders, to help cover any tariff-related fees for previous orders plus current and future orders. And again, if a tariff is on the production cost, that is different from the selling price. A 20% tariff on the $199 production cost of a random product selling for $1,000, for example, would be just under $40 — not the end of the world (the keycaps and first aid kits were already imported before the tariffs; we are just waiting on the boards themselves). Tariffs have already gone down from 145% to 20% for these keyboards, so there is no need to panic throughout the many months coming up, while production and assembly continues.

While we wait I don't mind chatting about planning, but there is a lot to chat about, such as possible new beam spring designs in the future as well as updating the Leyden Jar controller to support communication between split halves, etc.

genericusername57 wrote: 27 Apr 2025, 02:03

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14 I don’t know why you’re so obsessed with defending this guy, but anyway clearly you don’t know tariffs, allow me to help. I know you swedes don’t really have any great universities so your education may leave something to be desired.

You are from the US so any comment on education is an instant loss for you. Also, get fucked. And I know that sounds like an insult, but I mean that as a recommendation. You seem angry. It might help.

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14If the boards are already paid for then legally it would be a breach of contract if he holds the board until he gets the additional money.

Wow, I bet that means a lot when the reality of the situation is that there is not enough money to ship the boards in case of prohibitive tarrifs.

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14Now he could have some small text clauses somewhere (which is very ellipse) saying prices can be adjusted at any point to cover these types of issues.

What part of your little, small, dense little brain is having issues to comprehend that in case Joe hasn't got money to pay for the boards that they're not going to get shipped out?

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14But if not, joe pays it.

Unless he hasn't got enough money to do so

wobbled wrote: 26 Apr 2025, 15:14You could always just pay it all for him though, seems like something you would do.

You seem to think I've got a special relationship to Joe. The only one on this board that has got a special relationship with Joe is you. And you're not above ruining whatever remnants that remain of this forum to let everyone know.

"JuSt IGnOrE mY ComMenTs Bro"

Maybe don't write them. I get the impression that you're at least 12 years old, so act your age.

It's actually amazing how persistent you are. You know that your comments are not wanted by ANYONE. No one gives a fuck about what you think, yet you persist. You get asked to stop, yet you persist. The only reasonable conclusion is that you don't write your comments for the benefit of anyone, you do it because you like it and because you want to, despite no one wanting to read them. I guess you're a true American. Please complete the image by telling me you're Irish or Italian or something.

It's always amusing when someone assumes you're American because of the location tag. I live and work in the USA, but I am actually British. Some of us are actually attractive to other countries due to our immense skillsets and are headhunted. I wouldn't expect an a** licker on DT to understand though. You'll forever be Joe's little white knight. I can also assure you my education holds far more weight than yours, but lets not compare dick sizes for the entire argument.

Joe has plenty of money mate, he's been ripping off people for years and was recently able to cut his prices significantly. The problem is he's so greedy he won't want to spend the money. Again, perhaps you can pay for it on his behalf since you love him so much?

You are one of his biggest defenders, there has been countless people in this thread, as well as dedicated threads complaining about his lack of QC and overall quality only to be greeted with 'DERP DID U READ THE MANUAL'
Fuck his manual, it can get fucked, and so can you - I mean that entirely as a recommendation though, it might help.

The ignore button was made for a reason, as was free speech. It's a good job we have both isn't it!

If you get the impression I'm 12 but then tell me to act my age, then surely I'm already doing so? Enough with the nonsensical BS please. You've been here 2 years, and all you've done is lick Joe's behind. No one cares what you have to say little buddy, so pipe tf down.

Good job with the anti-American, anti-Irish, and anti-Italian crap though. Good grounds to be reported tbh so enjoy