Been out of keyboards for awhile. What's the state of the game?

vivalarevolución · 16 May 2018, 04:16

Norman_ wrote: There are a bunch of new low profile switches, mostly from khail. khail has in the past year or so really gotten past the funk they were in when the cherry patents first expired and are now actually doing good stuff. They used to be the cherry clone in all of the cheap keyboards, but they are now what gateron was back then: The best MX compatible switches on the market, at a price cheaper than genuine cherry (generally). They've created a new method of adding click to switches and it's quite nice, it's called the click bar. The linears they're making now are also buttery smooth. The new khail switches are what brought me back to MX compatible switches after all these years.

The custom market and clone market has also exploded. Tons of people are designing their own PCBs and cases and stuff like that for all kinds of use cases. Say what you want about how shitty reddit is as a community, it's doing great things for the hobby. So much great talent is being brought in. A rising tide floats all boats, after all.

Wow, quite the developments over the past couple of years.

My beef with reddit overall is that I find it hard to follow and it does not seem like a format that is friendly to long-term projects and discussion. I still feel like forums are ideal for that sort of thing.

chuckdee · 16 May 2018, 05:30

vivalarevolución wrote: My beef with reddit overall is that I find it hard to follow and it does not seem like a format that is friendly to long-term projects and discussion. I still feel like forums are ideal for that sort of thing.

I think that's the function of the format, and IMO not a reason to have beef- it's built for a different purpose is all. It's basically built around buzz, and a firehose of information and comments- much like a news site. It's not a discussion format in the traditional sense. And I don't think it tries to be. It's subtitled "the front page of the internet" on purpose, I think.

andrewjoy · 16 May 2018, 13:04

Wodan wrote: And I am sure some Hi-Tek pervs can be found around here as well.

Hi-Tek pervs ?

Hi-Tek switches are awesome , but too heavy.

Wodan · 16 May 2018, 13:28

andrewjoy wrote:
Wodan wrote: And I am sure some Hi-Tek pervs can be found around here as well.

Hi-Tek pervs ?

Hi-Tek switches are awesome , but too heavy.

*cough* perv *cough*

vivalarevolución · 16 May 2018, 14:05

chuckdee wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: My beef with reddit overall is that I find it hard to follow and it does not seem like a format that is friendly to long-term projects and discussion. I still feel like forums are ideal for that sort of thing.
I think that's the function of the format, and IMO not a reason to have beef- it's built for a different purpose is all. It's basically built around buzz, and a firehose of information and comments- much like a news site. It's not a discussion format in the traditional sense. And I don't think it tries to be. It's subtitled "the front page of the internet" on purpose, I think.

Good point, I guess that I was expecting the platform to be soemthing that it's not. Also, today I learned what TIL stands for.

chuckdee · 16 May 2018, 16:22

vivalarevolución wrote:
chuckdee wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: My beef with reddit overall is that I find it hard to follow and it does not seem like a format that is friendly to long-term projects and discussion. I still feel like forums are ideal for that sort of thing.
I think that's the function of the format, and IMO not a reason to have beef- it's built for a different purpose is all. It's basically built around buzz, and a firehose of information and comments- much like a news site. It's not a discussion format in the traditional sense. And I don't think it tries to be. It's subtitled "the front page of the internet" on purpose, I think.
Good point, I guess that I was expecting the platform to be soemthing that it's not. Also, today I learned what TIL stands for.

I think it's a function of how things are today- the platforms that were meant to bring us together, instead drive us further apart. Forums are meant for concentrated discourse and exchange of ideas- but notice that to many, they are seen as 'old fashioned'. The new way to communicate is to comment on stories or on facebook posts or instagram posts, or on reddit. To do the drive by comment and up/downvote rather than engage in a conversation where people may not share your beliefs. I've noticed that many conversations are around trying to bully the other party into saying that one or the other is 'right' rather than it being an exercise in listening to other viewpoints to try to inform each other, not about being 'right'. It's a sad state of affairs for our interactions, and is reflected in every area of modern interaction. Debates are seemingly limited to a school activity.

vivalarevolución · 17 May 2018, 00:40

chuckdee wrote:
I think it's a function of how things are today- the platforms that were meant to bring us together, instead drive us further apart. Forums are meant for concentrated discourse and exchange of ideas- but notice that to many, they are seen as 'old fashioned'. The new way to communicate is to comment on stories or on facebook posts or instagram posts, or on reddit. To do the drive by comment and up/downvote rather than engage in a conversation where people may not share your beliefs. I've noticed that many conversations are around trying to bully the other party into saying that one or the other is 'right' rather than it being an exercise in listening to other viewpoints to try to inform each other, not about being 'right'. It's a sad state of affairs for our interactions, and is reflected in every area of modern interaction. Debates are seemingly limited to a school activity.

You make a very good point about communication being in the form of comments rather than engaged conversation and the aspect of bullying others into agreeing with them rather than listening. I'm probably guilty of that because people sometimes say some preposterous things and I find it so ridiculous that I don't know how to react. And if I do try to listen but they are not putting forth the same honest effort, it doesn't go anywhere. Communication is always a two-way street.

I often wonder about how the sheer explosion of information and the new methods of communication have affected our simple ability to communicate. It's essentially a choose-your-own-news-and-reality buffet at this point, which makes honest debate difficult because the parties are living in two completely different realities. A person has to be willing to admit what they don't know, which is a lot. But if you are constantly being fed whatever you want to hear and don't practice intellectual humility, you might think that you know it all. What then?

fohat · 17 May 2018, 02:06

At the risk of seeming bombastic, here is a very long article that is well worth reading.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ry/559124/

An eyebrow might rise when you see the name of the author - not someone who I usually follow.

vivalarevolución · 17 May 2018, 02:17

fohat wrote: At the risk of seeming bombastic, here is a very long article that is well worth reading.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ry/559124/

An eyebrow might rise when you see the name of the author - not someone who I usually follow.

Is it THE Henry Kissinger? Writing in liberal rags now? What is this world coming to?

seebart · 17 May 2018, 02:20

Wodan wrote: I've always considered DT to be pretty balanced when it came to switches. The second most active thread on DT is about MX compatible keycaps ...

Then there's also the very strong IBM fraction ...

And I am sure some Hi-Tek pervs can be found around here as well.

I would hope the "pervs" have a wider range on their choices of switches here at DT. The MX, the Alps and the IBM fractions will always dominate the forum.

JP! · 17 May 2018, 02:30

vivalarevolución wrote:
matt3o wrote:
Blaise170 wrote: I think DT has more of a leaning towards Alps since they are no longer produced and this forum is much more receptive to the vintage stuff. People (especially on Reddit) tend to scoff at Alps stuff unless you've completely rebuilt it into a modern chassis.
and with cherry mx compatibility, you gotta show off those artisan keycaps somewhere
I think the hobby has transformed into a form of jewelry for tech industry workers. That was apparent years ago, but since I took a step back over the last couple years, it seems to have exploded in that form. There was a meetup here in Indianapolis recently that reportedly had 35-40 people, a number which I thought was previously unreachable in this midwestern backwater. I had no idea what kind of keyboards were there, but the tech industry is growing here, so it probably was a Cherry fest.

Anyways, blah blah blah, get off my lawn, etc.

Hey I was there even as was at least one other member here who brought some vintage boards. Regrettably I did not bring my boards even though I was so close. Some of the boards are included here: https://indymk.github.io/meetup/

I guess it was a bit of a Cherry fest though considering Cherry was a sponsor

Spoiler:

fohat · 17 May 2018, 02:49

vivalarevolución wrote:
THE Henry Kissinger?

Final paragraph:

"AI developers, as inexperienced in politics and philosophy as I am in technology, should ask themselves some of the questions I have raised here in order to build answers into their engineering efforts. The U.S. government should consider a presidential commission of eminent thinkers to help develop a national vision. This much is certain: If we do not start this effort soon, before long we shall discover that we started too late."

vivalarevolución · 17 May 2018, 02:55

seebart wrote:
Wodan wrote: I've always considered DT to be pretty balanced when it came to switches. The second most active thread on DT is about MX compatible keycaps ...

Then there's also the very strong IBM fraction ...

And I am sure some Hi-Tek pervs can be found around here as well.
I would hope the "pervs" have a wider range on their choices of switches here at DT. The MX, the Alps and the IBM fractions will always dominate the forum.

Hey, keep it clean in my thread! There are children around!

vivalarevolución · 17 May 2018, 03:18

JP! wrote:
Hey I was there even as was at least one other member here who brought some vintage boards. Regrettably I did not bring my boards even though I was so close. Some of the boards are included here: https://indymk.github.io/meetup/

I guess it was a bit of a Cherry fest though considering Cherry was a sponsor

Spoiler:
The stakes were very high. Also there was a giveaway with Cherry mugs filled up with Cherry switches!
1.JPG

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4.JPG

Hey, I'm just a grouchy, old, elitest, don't mind me. That keyboard list is pretty Cherry heavy, but here are a few DT-approved keyboards in there. Looks like it was a good time!

seebart · 17 May 2018, 12:43

vivalarevolución wrote: Hey, keep it clean in my thread! There are children around!

Really?

Blaise170 · 17 May 2018, 15:01

I always thought Kailh switches were nice. The only bad experience I had with them were secondhand yellows which I'm pretty sure the original owner tried (and failed) to lube.

vivalarevolución · 17 May 2018, 17:15

Blaise170 wrote: I always thought Kailh switches were nice. The only bad experience I had with them were secondhand yellows which I'm pretty sure the original owner tried (and failed) to lube.

The first Kailhs out there were atrocious. Soembody I knew had blue Kailh and they were so bad in so many many wyas. About half of the switches on the board just didn't work or got stuck. That's why I have such a bad opinion of them, but they must have got better.

I always thought Gaterons were the best Cherry clones because they improved upon many of the shortcomings of stock Cherry switches (spring weight, tactile bump, scratchiness). But the game has changed, apparently.

Blaise170 · 17 May 2018, 17:18

My Keycool Hero 104 has Blue Kailhs from 2014, 2015? They seemed to be fine. Also had a Rapoo V500 with the Yellows which seemed fine (other than some oily substance leaking from some of them). The only Gaterons I've had were Clears on the Varmilo VB87M I have where half died. So I guess it depends.

chuckdee · 18 May 2018, 06:01

The Kailh box switches and speed switches are really nice. I was stuck on MX Browns, then went to Gateron Browns (MX clears were too much for me). Box are about the same weight, but don't feel anywhere as fatiguing to me.

vivalarevolución · 18 May 2018, 14:57

chuckdee wrote: The Kailh box switches and speed switches are really nice. I was stuck on MX Browns, then went to Gateron Browns (MX clears were too much for me). Box are about the same weight, but don't feel anywhere as fatiguing to me.

I can get over my previous hangups with Kailh, so I am leaning towards the Kailh Pro Purple and Hako Violets at this point. I like light, tactile switches with a higher tactile bump that most Cherry and Cherry clones, which usually have a tactile bump in the middle of the keystroke rather than the towards the beginning.

The Kailh speed are interesting, but not sure how much I will like those because the overall key travel just seems too short. That might lead to more typing mistakes.

chuckdee · 18 May 2018, 15:51

I'd suggest taking a look at the Box versions also. That extra stability with the higher bump is nice. And I think that the Hako is felt on the return, which I didn't like the idea of- though I've not had a chance to try it yet.