Brexit: The DT Poll

[Wodan]

I think derzemels whole post was ironic, at least that's how I read it.

He surely loves Romania but that was just him mocking stereotypes about Romania.

[BimboBB]

I hope yes. Its practically written in every national constitution that the people have to be asked if they want to be rather their own nation or giving up their national constitution and becoming part of a (soviet)-union. Thats this was done only now for the first time is already a shame.

LOL source?
That's the kind of talk that poisons internet debates ... why bring in the soviet union here? That's just cheap, Godwins law light. Your statement is so full of ridiculous claims and misunderstanding of democratic procedures. We vote our representatives and equip them with the power to make decisions for us. That's called a representative democracy and I hope it's not the first time you've heard of this. Just because you don't like what's going on doesn't mean it's not democratic. Accepting the decision of the majority of part of a democracy and never in the late German history has there been anything close to a majority agains the EU membership so stop acting like the whole EU membership was undemocratic.

Have a read in our Grundgesetz (Artikel 20) and you might realize that the power of our governments has limits which is good and the fundament of democracy. They just cannot do everything what they want, especially not changing a national constitution into another one...without asking the people. Thats even confirmed by the BVerfG. Beside that its just logical, that if you want to make a "United States of Europe", you have to ask the people. No discussion about that.

Art 20
(1) Die Bundesrepublik Deutschland ist ein demokratischer und sozialer Bundesstaat.
(2) Alle Staatsgewalt geht vom Volke aus. Sie wird vom Volke in Wahlen und Abstimmungen und durch besondere Organe der Gesetzgebung, der vollziehenden Gewalt und der Rechtsprechung ausgeübt.
(3) Die Gesetzgebung ist an die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung, die vollziehende Gewalt und die Rechtsprechung sind an Gesetz und Recht gebunden.
(4) Gegen jeden, der es unternimmt, diese Ordnung zu beseitigen, haben alle Deutschen das Recht zum Widerstand, wenn andere Abhilfe nicht möglich ist.

[webwit]

Would be funny if Scotland would now leave the UK and then gets snubbed by the EU because "you only love me for my money, bitch".

[cookie]

But UK did not change their constitution they've just decided to leave the EU. I think a referendum was just the safest and most straight forward way to go.

In case they fail really bad, politicians can blame the people for voting

[jacobolus]

I think derzemels whole post was ironic, at least that's how I read it.

He surely loves Romania but that was just him mocking stereotypes about Romania.

What I want to know is: what happened to the stray dogs? Are they now getting run over after the roads improved? Did the pocket thieves take them along when they moved to the UK? Did they overdose on the cheap booze?

[jacobolus]

If Scotland leaves the UK, Europe will definitely take them, if nothing else to say fuck you to the English.

[webwit]

I don't want to give these Scottish gypsies my hard earned money!

[adhoc]

But UK did not change their constitution they've just decided to leave the EU. I think a referendum was just the safest and most straight forward way to go.

In case they fail really bad, politicians can blame the people for voting

Well, EU response was that "out is out" and UK can't appeal to rejoin after some time. In other words: no backsies!

[Wodan]

You mention that the power of our government has limits and they cannot do anything they like. Changes to the constitution are of course possible but require very high approval rates. No vote required, happens ALL THE TIME:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verfassungs%C3%A4nderung

If you quote from the constitution to make your point, please be a little more precise about where excatly you see a conflict. It is not obvious ...

And since you mention "Thats even confirmed by the BVerfG." are you aware that even the recent course of the ECB has been largely approved by the BVerfG?

I am not aware of any concerns the BVerfG has about the current situation of Germany and the EU. If you have concerns, I suggest you take them to Karlsruhe for a reality check.

[cookie]

Well this is the first heat, this will fade after a while.
I am more afraid of other countries right-wing populist jumping on the Brexit train and turning Europe into chaos....
Hey 1933 here we go again!

[derzemel]

The depreciation of calling Roma Gypsys is more a central European thing. I've seen a movie from Portugal showing people smash frogs that are placed at the entrances of shops. They are placed there to scare Gypsys off. The film maker also called them Gypsys.

that's the silliest thing I have read all week.
Yeah, there is a lot of racism around these parts (Central-Eastern Europe) towards minorities in general. You should see the internet wars that used to happen here in Romania between the Hungarian minority in Transilvania (who want autonomy) and the very vocal ultra nationalists.
But to let it all to rest, I am not racist, I never was, never will be. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood and had allot of gypsy friends while growing up. We even had 3 friends (brothers) that were jew. The fist time we saw a black kid, we all wanted to be like that kid, he was the coolest.
I see racism as a disease, as the cancer of modern society. You could say that the background reason UK people voted yes to Brexit is racism. Racism towards Asians, Romanians, Poles, etc (taking their jobs) and racism towards the EU as whole (hate towards EU regulations).
Now we will likely see an increase of dislike and hate (racism?) between the Scots and the English and Between the Northern Ireland and England
In my earlier comment I was ironic.
As Wodan said (thank you!) I was making fun of the stereotypes that other countries have about Romania (e.g.: all Romanians are Romany/gypsies).

[webwit]

I don't think France/Germany/UK will be invading each other. It would be bad for the stock markets.

[Wodan]

I don't think France/Germany/UK will be invading each other. It would be bad for the stock markets.

Stock markets were around in 1914, too.

[cookie]

It's all about the cash, I don't know if I like or dislike this.

[derzemel]

I think derzemels whole post was ironic, at least that's how I read it.

He surely loves Romania but that was just him mocking stereotypes about Romania.

What I want to know is: what happened to the stray dogs? Are they now getting run over after the roads improved? Did the pocket thieves take them along when they moved to the UK? Did they overdose on the cheap booze?

Shelters, adoption, sterilization for the chill ones, euthanasia for the aggressive.

[seebart]

I don't want to give these Scottish gypsies my hard earned money!

Just the Scottish gypsies? What about all the other gypsies?

[7bit]

Well this is the first heat, this will fade after a while.
I am more afraid of other countries right-wing populist jumping on the Brexit train and turning Europe into chaos....
Hey 1933 here we go again!

No way!

Juncker will punish you traitors so hard, that no despot in Europe will ever ask their people again if they want to leave the family!

[webwit]

It's not going so well according to the Amsterdam hooker scale. Most are from Romania...

[Wodan]

It's all about the cash, I don't know if I like or dislike this.

It has always been. Cash is just the name it has today ... back in the day it was called "Influence" or "hunting grounds" or whatever. We should all be glad that even the most radical (western) politicians are still not talking about war yet.

Different situation in the east though ... political changes there lead to outright war. In a country that was hosting the the last European Football Cup !!!

[cookie]

Ohh wait till Serbia joins the EU, you'r money will be gone faster as you can say Jack!

[Halvar]

Am I the only one who believe it was an utterly stupid idea to put such a complex thing up for a referendum?

No, of course it was an utterly stupid idea, Cameron has already resigned for that idea.

Representative democracy is broken in many countries, but we don't have anything better yet. So people cry out for direct democracy, which is definitely not a better solution (unless maybe if you live in Switzerland). You just need to read this thread to see how lightly people decide on these matters (and I don't mean Muirium). Take that together with a 52/48 vote and the dysfunctional debate culture of today's media mix, and there's nothing sensible at all about deciding important complex matters that way. It's just irresponsible.

[BimboBB]

@wodan

You dont understand me. Not talking about a change WITHIN our constitution....talking about a change of the WHOLE constitution, which will be necessary when it comes to a "United States of Europe" and the "nation" Germany will not exist anymore afterwards, which I assume is the endgoal of this whole EU thing. Of course nobody has to vote now, but when Brussel shall take over completely, there needs to be a vote anyway. Thats what I had in mind, when answering cookie if its a good idea to make referendum. In the end, its not even a good idea...it is mandatory.

[webwit]

What's more irresponsible is that these idiots have been voting our fascist leaders who are working for the 1%, not for us.

[Chyros]

OK OK OK, I get it, I'll leave already, jeez... :/

[seebart]

Representative democracy is broken in many countries

It is in Germany IMO. I was never asked if I want to join the EU or if I want the Euro as a currency! No German citizen was ever "asked"! At least this referendum was a real democratic vote.

OK OK OK, I get it, I'll leave already, jeez... :/

Where you goin' ? Why don't you stay and swear like a sailor!

[cookie]

Good point Halvar, Democracy can be a bitch! Especially if the results are so close like this one, I mean come on 51,9%.
UK seems divided, this can't be it there is certainly more to come.

[Chyros]

OK OK OK, I get it, I'll leave already, jeez... :/

Where you goin' ? Why don't you stay and swear like a sailor!

Well obviously I'm not wanted here, which makes deciding where to go next after my PhD a lot easier :/ .

[cookie]

It is in Germany IMO. I was never asked if I want to join the EU or if I want the Euro as a currency! No German citizen was ever "asked"! At least this referendum was a real democratic vote.

That was what I thought as well!

If it was mandatory, why the hell didn't we vote for the EU in the first place?

[Wodan]

@wodan

You dont understand me. Not talking about a change WITHIN our constitution....talking about a change of the WHOLE constitution, which will be necessary when it comes to a "United States of Europe" and the "nation" Germany will not exist anymore afterwards, which I assume is the endgoal of this whole EU thing. Of course nobody has to vote now, but when Brussel shall take over completely, there needs to be a vote anyway. Thats what I had in mind, when answering cookie if its a good idea to make referendum. In the end, its not even a good idea...it is mandatory.

Oh lol I think that ship has sailed a while ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_es ... for_Europe
People still use this scenario to spread fear and scare people into voting for them. Did fail though, years ago.

[Wodan]

It is in Germany IMO. I was never asked if I want to join the EU or if I want the Euro as a currency! No German citizen was ever "asked"! At least this referendum was a real democratic vote.

I was never asked if we should abandon nuclear power or introduce minimum wage. Welcome to the world of representative democracy, a surprise every time the majority decides something you personally disagree with.