Brexit: The DT Poll

[Muirium]

@Webwit. Aye. It's all broken. All globalization and its victims, being sold fantasies they don't even believe in.

And here's a fine essay by John Harris, who's been covering the social division behind all this the best of anyone:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/com ... estminster

Bonus points for quoting (and not just for show) George Orwell's legendary The Lion and the Unicorn: one of the greatest little works on politics in the English language. Something I've read several times over the years, only to understand anew each one.

[webwit]

Yes, craziness, not wanting to be ruled by people you cannot vote on. And they are such nice rulers.

[Wodan]

Even though I'm rather into Irish whiskeys, tonight I'll pour myself a scotch.

I have faith in you!

[tigpha]

Webwit, I have to acknowledge that your reasoning is very sound, that the abused have taken the referendum lever with both hands and wedged it hard where they think it hurts their abuser the most. But it feels to me that the revolt will hurt the revolutionaries more than the oppressors. Maybe there wasn't much other option than either this, or a full on bloody Bolshevik style revolution?

[fohat]

Its a sad day too for the EU, the project had its flaws but i truly believe it was a stabilising force for the world as a whole, despite what EU officials say this is the beginning of the end, lets hope this puts a rocket up the arse of the EU and we get real change to make it work for the people who are left in it.

This is also my hope. I have come around, by way of the "lesser of 2 evils" route, to think that engaging, even a poor deal, is better than being on the outside with no influence at all.

[seebart]

It's not the end of anything. If you ask me "Europe" never really got stared, or rather off to a bad start to begin with. Difficult times for sure. Best thing I heard today was Trump in Scotland giving an interview while golfing, from what he was saying I'm not sure he quite understands the situation but I could be wrong.

[emdude]

[webwit]

But it feels to me that the revolt will hurt the revolutionaries more than the oppressors.

Too much drama from both sides. The people will produce, and trade will be trade. Traders trade with anyone. Ties with the UK will still remain stronger than they were in times of the EEC. UK tourists will remain getting drunk and stoned in Amsterdam. And no WWIII. Globalization has united us in such a way that I don't think France/England/Germany will be invading each other in the foreseeable long future.

[jacobolus]

looking at the graphs, you can see a much tighter and steeper trend between % higher education and social grade.

These factors are all heavily correlated.

In general, seems like it’s places with lots of old, uneducated, unemployed, native-born English people who voted for leaving.

[cookie]

Trump is begging for assassination.

[jacobolus]

Assassination? Sheesh. No thanks.

Trump is begging for electoral stomping, leaving him to go home to his ruined business reputation and universal scorn, and hopefully a less gullible customer base for his various frauds.

[Muirium]

Indeed. We only assassinate people who absolutely don't deserve it over here. And by people, I mean women. And by we, I mean disturbed creepy loners with guns at point blank.

As for Trumpet, I think he has a wilfully optimistic reading of the Scottish mood.

[webwit]

I wonder if the biggest threat for the UK will be the European Commission. The reaction from both Remain and Brexit was: Ok, let's take our time. This is a process of years. The first reaction of the EC was: Ok, fuck. But now get the fuck out of here asap.

So they really hate this defeat. Not only because they lost the UK, but also because it might encourage campaigns elsewhere (Drexit, Nexit, etc.). Their power is in play, and the UK must be made an example of. They must be punished and hurt. For starters, you think the continuation of trade agreements? Nah, the Swiss method: high import and export taxes. How dare you not be ruled by us. They want this quick so they can tell other movements before they become big: Look what happened to them.

[emdude]

As for Trumpet, I think he has a wilfully optimistic reading of the Scottish mood.

Yep:

[jacobolus]

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-st ... to-me.html

[webwit]

The first line reads "Okay, so the idiots did it; they broke the UK.".

Is it perhaps a partisan piece?

[cookie]

Assassination? Sheesh. No thanks.

Trump is begging for electoral stomping, leaving him to go home to his ruined business reputation and universal scorn, and hopefully a less gullible customer base for his various frauds.

Even better than getting killed... he made a total dork of himself and those idiots who are actually considering him as candidate!

[rootwyrm]

I wonder if the biggest threat for the UK will be the European Commission. The reaction from both Remain and Brexit was: Ok, let's take our time. This is a process of years. The first reaction of the EC was: Ok, fuck. But now get the fuck out of here asap.

Or, gasp and shock, the EU told the UK to get the fuck out because they're tired of having to scream and yell to get London to honor the treaty obligations they agreed to. Especially ones dealing with financial fraud, funding terrorism, and anti-money laundering. What, you think Switzerland had a monopoly on illegal banking? Yeah, not even close. And you think they're gonna let the UK just do whatever they please with financial regulations and get a free pass to EUD? Yeah. Not happening.
But please, tell me how everybody in the world wants a protracted period of not being sure whether or not their investments are going to worth a Continental damn, with no way to even guess at the taxes and fees. To say nothing of whether or not they'll even be able to get employees - or get a job.

But obviously the more than 20,000 financial sector jobs in London alone that will be moving to EU member states within the next 12 months is cause for the EU to be all "OMG WE LOST SO BAD." Not to mention no longer having to subsidize batshit things like "clean coal", or having to force the UK to clean up their literal shit, or pay to clean up the inevitable disasters that will come now that Liz Truss can have her way.

Total lose-lose for the EU, clearly. Dumping a bunch of assholes that did nothing but shit on the table, then flipped it over whenever they were asked to compromise - and picking up more than 100,000 jobs and a few hundred billion of assets and deposits in the process.

[emdude]

It is probably also a very sad day for UK science:

http://www.nature.com/news/researchers- ... eu-1.20153
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... scientists

I imagine Stephen Hawking and the many scientists who supported Remain are deeply, deeply disappointed in the result.

[webwit]

This is again the narrative that the brainless voted out and the mindful, intelligent and moral people voted in. Can we have a flood limit on links to the Guardian now? It's the Fox News of the left.

Edit: All these scientists are not being scientific if they take this stand. They dramatically present the issue as white, but the issue is clearly not black or white, it's most definitely gray. A true scientist explores and discusses this grayness and its facets. It disappoints me that Stephen Hawking tried to use his authority to manipulate people towards his partisan white stand, his narcissism triumphs the scientist. A true scientist and not a manipulator would have presented the full grayness and how he added it up to arrive at his final vote.

[rootwyrm]

This is again the narrative that the brainless voted out and the mindful, intelligent and moral people voted in. Can we have a flood limit on links to the Guardian now? It's the Fox News of the left.

The only brainless person I see here is you, refusing to accept the facts as what they are. The EU was better than the alternative - because this is the alternative. You are not even half as intelligent as you think you are, and even less informed than you insist. Maybe go back to the 'flouride is poison' and 'secret <insert racial slur here> conspiracy' boards where you're all equally ignorant. Oh I'm sorry, where you're all equally "mindful" and special "scientists."

It's your choice if you want to continue to prove you're even worse than the typical Fox News retard by claiming any facts you don't like are "biased media." I'm sure you'd be screaming the same had I used this link instead. I imagine the only facts you accept look like this.
And do continue to tell a guy who works in the financial industry what actions senior management is taking to start moving some or all of their UK based operations less than 24 hours after the result. I mean, it's not like scrapping passporting would impact 40% of EU AUM or that office space in Frankfurt has been hot for months or BNP Paribas and JP Morgan are both considering a move to France. That's so totally not the reality, not at all. Nope.

[webwit]

Ah a personal attack. Blech. Yeah man, flouride.

I can do ad hominem too:
Good luck with your career in the financial industry. As a libertarian I hope it burns in hell. With a special jail for senior management.

As I'm sure, you'll feel likewise about me . As does all of the traditional left and right. Even the anarchists hate me, for the same reason atheists hate the agnostic.

P.S. If I say The Guardian is the Fox News of the left, I compare The Guardian to an epitome of partisan nuttiness, which despite your superior intelligence, you read as an endorsement of Fox News, for whatever particular reason, such as stupidity.

[Redmaus]

...

[fohat]

Assassination? Sheesh. No thanks.

Trump is begging for electoral stomping, leaving him to go home to his ruined business reputation and universal scorn

Trump is done. He just turned 70 and has at least enough money to finish his life comfortably, even after all the election bills are paid.

Why should he care that his hotel bookings are down by half? He has spent his life in "business" this last hurrah was his way of going out in a blaze of glory.

The reason that I love Trump is my hope that he will devastate the Republican Party, as we know it, from within. Assassination would be a worst-case scenario because he would be removed from the picture before the job was finished.

My ideal scenario is a 3rd-party run - either by Trump after the Republicans boot him out or by an alternate Republican who offers himself up as the non-Trump. Either way, the Republican vote will be further splintered and dissipated, and that can be nothing but good.

[webwit]

Trump is win-win! He will hurt the republican party, and if he wins, the democratic party too.

[kbdfr]

[…] All these scientists are not being scientific if they take this stand. They dramatically present the issue as white, but the issue is clearly not black or white, it's most definitely gray. A true scientist explores and discusses this grayness and its facets. It disappoints me that Stephen Hawking tried to use his authority to manipulate people towards his partisan white stand, his narcissism triumphs the scientist. A true scientist and not a manipulator would have presented the full grayness and how he added it up to arrive at his final vote.

So "a true scientist" has to "present the full grayness and how he added it up to arrive at his final vote",
while it is OK for the Nigel Farages and Trumps of this world to just appeal to the worst instincts of their audience?

Oh well, probably the scientists are just vassals of the 1%

[7bit]

This is again the narrative that the brainless voted out and the mindful, intelligent and moral people voted in. Can we have a flood limit on links to the Guardian now? It's the Fox News of the left.

Edit: All these scientists are not being scientific if they take this stand. They dramatically present the issue as white, but the issue is clearly not black or white, it's most definitely gray. A true scientist explores and discusses this grayness and its facets. It disappoints me that Stephen Hawking tried to use his authority to manipulate people towards his partisan white stand, his narcissism triumphs the scientist. A true scientist and not a manipulator would have presented the full grayness and how he added it up to arrive at his final vote.

This is because there where 2 alternatives given:
remain vs. leave.

You have to choose the least bad option and for me this would have been pro EU. Ideally, there would have been a 3rd option, like "remain if EU is hugely reformed to be more transparent, more democratic, less centralistic" (or so).

But there was no 3rd option so people voted for what they thought will be least bad for them.

In my opinion, if the Cameron really did not want this result, he failed to set up the referendum question properly to have the result he really wanted.

Ideally, you get a result that gives you a strong postion for negotiations with the EU. The result they have now, is just shit to negotiate anything.

[webwit]

So "a true scientist" has to "present the full grayness and how he added it up to arrive at his final vote",
while it is OK for the Nigel Farages and Trumps of this world to just appeal to the worst instincts of their audience?

Oh well, probably the scientists are just vassals of the 1%

Yes indeed, because they are not politicians and weasels? Unless they choose to be, of course. Which some did.

To see and name both sides of the picture isn't so hard.

[seebart]

I think 7bit should have managed the entire Brexit process so in the end no one knows for sure what's going on and everybody just hopes for something. Also the actual voting would have been made similair to 7bot's ordering system based on very complex permutations to make things really confusing.

[webwit]

7bit must have managed the Dutch referendum on the Ukraine then.