Paris

[photekq]

There's a reason for that. This kind of argument is the path to genocide. What are you proposing? The western world demands Muslims to give up their faith? And what happens next, when they rightly refuse?

Oh come on now.. Genocide? Asking Muslims to give up their faith? Nobody's proposing that. Not even neo-Nazis would propose that. How about sane immigration policies for a start? As far as I'm concerned Islam is an ideology that is incompatible with Western values, but it doesn't become a problem until the Muslim population reaches high enough numbers. It's all a matter of numbers.

[shreebles]

Islam itself is just as incompatible with western civilization as the old testament of the bible is.

If you take everything in the bible literally, you could not live in western civilization. The problem isn't with being religious, the question is how serious you are about it.

I have no problem with muslims migrating to Europe as long as they can just for the love of god take it easy on the religion.
Everyone can be religious as long as the jurisdiction and government are secular.

[kbdfr]

Islam is not an ideology, Islam is a religion.

I don't remember anybody claimed that Christianism is an ideology because some Christian idiots shot abortion doctors or actually believe in the textual meaning of "God created man in his image".
You bet they would want to create their own state and force everybody to live by their standards, and kill them otherwise.

Oh, may I add I am not a Muslim myself?

[photekq]

Islam itself is just as incompatible with western civilization as the old testament of the bible is.

If you take everything in the bible literally, you could not live in western civilization. The problem isn't with being religious, the question is how serious you are about it.

I have no problem with muslims migrating to Europe as long as they can just for the love of god take it easy on the religion.
Everyone can be religious as long as the jurisdiction and government are secular.

I absolutely agree. But the difference is that very, very few Christians take the old testament literally or pay any notice to it at all. People like creationists and gay-haters are quickly becoming a dying breed. I think a distinction must be made in regards to my previous statement : I do not view gay-haters and those against same-sex marriage as the same people.

Meanwhile, when it comes to Islam, there are plenty of people who take the religions teachings literally, and they're showing no signs of dying out! This is why I laugh when people call Islam moderate. Yes, moderate Muslims do exist, but they are not an overwhelming majority like most claim.

Perhaps in the future once Islam becomes diluted as Christianity has, then it will be compatible with Western values. Just not right now.

Islam is not an ideology, Islam is a religion.

I don't know. It's tricky. Perhaps I should not be so hasty to call it an ideology, but I do tend to lean towards those who say that Islam is closer to a political ideology than a religion. Not because of recent events, but historically.

[7bit]

Someone (a refugee) from Lebanon told me that in the Arab world, they are still in medival times (compared to Europe/America/East Asia). That was almost 30 years ago. Not much has changed.

Also, it isn't like there are no Christian* radicalists here in Europe:
http://www.google.de/search?q=terrorist ... LAodbvQH5Q
http://www.google.de/search?q=NSU-Affär ... isch&tbo=u
http://www.google.de/search?q=Anschlag+ ... isch&tbo=u
They are not so many, but they exist.

------------------------
*) maybe not much more Christian than the others are Islamic ...

[andrewjoy]

Photekq this the nail on the head. But don't forget that a large percentage of americans literally believe the bible and there is allot of money behind it.

Its true that there is some pretty horrible stuff in the Old Testament, off the top of my head killing of children , slaughtering whole towns but keeping the virgins for yourself ect ect. People even try to defend this shit but i highly doubt any of them would take a sword and use it to kill an innocent child like the bible teaches.

The main problem in christianity is the spreading of miss information and poisoning of education both of them are pretty bad, but i don't even think this nutter would strap high explosives to himself and set them off in a stadium killing innocent people.

So yes all religion has its hardline elements and the teachings are horrible and we would be better off without any of it, but there is only one that acts out the violence.

Anyone of any religion is welcome to live in civilised western society, but they have to adapt there religious practices to match the laws of the society, not the other way around.

And yes all governments should be 100% secular but unfortunately they are not, hell the US added "Under God" to there declaration thingy in the 1950s!

[Engicoder]

Photekq this the nail on the head. But don't forget that a large percentage of americans literally believe the bible and there is allot of money behind it.

I think many Americans believe what they are told they bible says. Less make their own interpretations from the text.

[andrewjoy]

Thats why i prefer cold hard facts to interpretations! That goes for anything.

EDIT

I found this



Iceland , you give me hope, U.K is far too high up on that list for my liking.

[shreebles]

So yes all religion has its hardline elements and the teachings are horrible and we would be better off without any of it, but there is only one that acts out the violence.

Well - right now??

Christians used to act out the violence quite out a bit...

I will say it again, the problem isn't with the religion itself, it is with those who take it too seriously!

[photekq]

I will say it again, the problem isn't with the religion itself, it is with those who take it too seriously!

I will agree with you again! And I will say it again: the problem is that currently Muslims, on the whole, take their religion far too seriously.

[seebart]

I'm sure you are all aware of this already, but I'll just repreat it anyway. The islamic state is imposing a very warped extreme partial version of Islam for their crusade.

[shreebles]

I will say it again, the problem isn't with the religion itself, it is with those who take it too seriously!

I will agree with you again! And I will say it again: the problem is that currently Muslims, on the whole, take their religion far too seriously.

I'm sorry, I have not read your post as closely as I should've as I was replying to andrewjoy's post. There are certainly people who are stuck in the middle ages, and more of them are muslims than christians.

But still, on the whole, most muslims living in Europe are very moderate in their beliefs. In fact, I don't think that religion will play much of a role in the western world in future generations. Christianity has and will die out with each generation of young people choosing not to practice their religion. The same happens with Islam: Many second-generation immigrants whose parents are muslim don't even practice that religion.

I will take Germany as an example since I live here. Out of the 80 million people in this country, some 3-4 million are muslims. There are an estimated 3-4000 Salafists in this country. To say that even half of them are dangerous and want to bring death to infidels is a stretch.
Unfortunately, in todays age of bombs and automatic weapons, you need very few people to produce tragic events like those seen in Paris last week, or those happening all the time around the globe. But to think that the majority of muslims are stuck in the middle ages, and ready to become extremists, is not accurate in my opinion.

[seebart]

I'm sorry, I have not read your post as closely as I should've as I was replying to andrewjoy's post. There are certainly people who are stuck in the middle ages, and more of them are muslims than christians.

I know, I just wanted to mention it.

Unfortunately, in todays age of bombs and automatic weapons, you need very few people to produce tragic events like those seen in Paris last week, or those happening all the time around the globe. But to think that the majority of muslims are stuck in the middle ages, and ready to become extremists, is not accurate in my opinion.

I agree. Before this tragedy in Paris I did not know Belgium has quite a few muslims and apparently also some extremists.

[shreebles]

Seebart, I wrote this reply to Photekq - I had not read your post then!

[seebart]

Seebart, I wrote this reply to Photekq - I had not read your post then!

You seebarted me shreebles, and quite well to. But it's OK.

[Engicoder]

I think level of education and exposure to people and ideas different to those in you home town/province have a substantial affect on views. As communication makes the world smaller and people become more familiar with people with other views, I think they become more moderate overall. For example in my home state of North Carolina in the US and A, there was a contested vote on adding an amendment to the state constitution that defined marriage as between one man and one women. Basically, are you accepting of gay and lesbian people or not. The charts below show the results:

Shows the percentage who were intolerant of gay marriage:


Shows the percentage who had advanced education:


They are nearly inverse of each other.

[ramnes]

I don't want to be rude, but I find your example very misplaced. It's almost like saying that gay marriage opponents are potential terrorists.

You know, education can also be seen as something that format people, which would explain your charts in a really different way. I'm myself well educated and working as a software engineer; but my two best recruits don't have a single diploma. Please explain me that with some more random charts.

[Engicoder]

Yes...it is a bit out of place. I was trying to use is as an example. Education itself isn't the point. In general people with advanced educations have been exposed to differing opinions and tend to form their own on difficult issues as opposed to people who are isolated and accept the opinion of the majority in one region. Its not the process of education, its the experience they had in achieving that education. Many people have similar experiences without a formal education. Having a degree doesn't mean much. Some of the brightest, most capable people do not have one and some people with a degree are closed minded and useless.

[ramnes]

Islam is not an ideology, Islam is a religion.

Nowadays Islam is much more a culture than a religion (at least in France). From my personal experience, a lot of self claimed Muslims just have no idea of what their religion is. They don't know the five pillars of Islam, never read the Quran a single time, etc.

[fohat]

And yes all governments should be 100% secular but unfortunately they are not, hell the US added "Under God" to there declaration thingy in the 1950s!

"Under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance to the flag (pledges of allegiance seem to be supremely important to religious types) in 1953 at the height of the McCarthy era.

"In God We Trust" was first added to a coin during the Civil War and put on all money during the Great Depression.

Just because modern religious types have gotten louder (both literally and in terms of "big money" backing whatever Republicans are talking about) does not mean that the Founding Fathers had any such ideas in mind when they created this country:

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
(George Washington: Letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789)

[vivalarevolución]

Considering the recent turn in this conversation, I think you all might find this post interesting (you don't need a Facebook account to read the post):
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... =777730954

Anyways, here is the text of the post:

Spoiler:

I want to thank well-meaning non-Muslims who, in the wake of these attacks, have emphasised that they have been carried out by a small, twisted minority. A terrorist's goal is to sow hatred and discord, and by not giving in, you are defeating their plans.
But I want to say that as a Muslim, I wish that we weren't so quick to emphasise that this has nothing to do with us. While I personally have never killed anyone and none of my friends and family have ever resorted to violence, radicalism has everything to do with Islam. And the failure to address that out of a well-intentioned commitment to tolerance is making the problem worse.
ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and it is an Islamic problem. Let me say it again to be perfectly clear. ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and they are a cancer at the heart of Islam. And the problem will not go away until Muslims confront that.
ISIS attackers scream 'Allah hu'akbar' during their attacks.
ISIS recruits cite Qur'anic verses as justification for the rape and enslavement of women.
ISIS soldiers kill archaeologists, gay men and women, and people who refuse to convert to Islam because they are blasphemers.
There are no Christians in ISIS. There are no Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Taoists, Houngans, Catholics, Wiccans, Hindus or even Scientologists in ISIS. ISIS is a Muslim organisation and they kill in the name of Islam.
So don't say that ISIS aren't 'true Muslims' or that they are 'not really Muslims'. Like any large organisation, ISIS exists in a spectrum. You have the aimless, restless teenager who never amounted to anything in his life and traveled to Syria because he can't find a job and doesn't know if the Qur'an is to be read from left to right or right to left. But you also have pious professionals, businessmen, and academics who read their Qur'an cover to cover, pray every day, were seduced into radicalism, and truly believe that the Islamic State's goal of conquest is a noble one. The so-called 'Caliph' Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic studies.
So if you feel that Muslims are being oppressed or killed in Muslim countries, I expect you to also be just as outraged by ISIS. Because they have killed more Muslims in Iraq, Syria and Jordan than the entire US army. They have done more damage to the name and reputation of Islam than any Western nation. ISIS is Islam's biggest enemy, not the US, not Israel or France or Germany or the Russians.
We have to own the problem. We have to admit that this is a religious problem, and we need to renew our commitment to a secular country which treats all religions equally. I have believed in the importance of secularism all my life, and with every day that passes that belief grows stronger. Religion is no way to govern a nation. Not any religion, and not any nation.
ISIS is not America's problem, nor the British, nor the French. ISIS is not Syria or Iraq's problem. ISIS is a problem for Muslims. And if you can't admit that, you're not really a good Muslim either.
‪#‎LibertyFraternityEquality‬
‪#‎LongLiveTheRepublic‬

[Hak Foo]

"In God We Trust" was first added to a coin during the Civil War and put on all money during the Great Depression.

Actually, it didn't appear on the notes until the 1950s, as part of Cold War more-Godly-than-thou posturing.

[andrewjoy]

Just because modern religious types have gotten louder (both literally and in terms of "big money" backing whatever Republicans are talking about) does not mean that the Founding Fathers had any such ideas in mind when they created this country:

Thats exactly my point, your founding farther guys formed a awesome secular nation free from the state imposing any religion, and then some asshole in the 50s screwed it up.

[billnye]

Some very good points have been raised in this thread. I appreciate everyone who took the time to formulate an informed response.

In other news related to the shooting, some US governors are claiming that they will not allow refugees in their states due to fear of terrorist attacks:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/16/world/par ... -backlash/


I was wondering what everyone thought about states refusing to accept these immigrants due to the fear of potential terrorist attacks. Will not allowing in refugees actually make a difference in preventing attacks?

[Muirium]

It's pandering to right wing paranoia. Give conservatives an excuse and they'll show their true colours. Which, if it needs spelled out: is pale, white skin. No negroes please, Arabs, dogs, Chinamen or Irish.



They're at it in Europe, too:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/st ... is-attacks

Le Pen has been waiting for this. Time to throw Liberty, Equality *and* Fraternity into the fire for once and for all!

Turning to the right is, of course, exactly what Islamists expect and desire from us. Praise God!

[Muirium]

Oh come on now.. Genocide? Asking Muslims to give up their faith? Nobody's proposing that. Not even neo-Nazis would propose that. How about sane immigration policies for a start? As far as I'm concerned Islam is an ideology that is incompatible with Western values, but it doesn't become a problem until the Muslim population reaches high enough numbers. It's all a matter of numbers.

The BNP campaigns on deporting all non-whites. The Nazis campaigned on deporting all Jews. We know how that ended.

Farage is playing with fire. UKIP wants to be England's Front nationale. He can smell the tide of xenophobia in the tabloid air. If there was a general election today, UKIP would certainly beat Labour in votes. Fortunately, there is not! Imagine if an attack on this scale had happened in London back in May…

As for numbers, we saw in Paris that it only takes a handful of terrorists to kill a lot of innocent people. The handful of attackers in 9/11 achieved even more slaughter. The media presents these killings in the context of a war. But there is no Isis army encircling Paris. Only in their propaganda's dreams. Terrorism is a criminal problem. Its causes are political. And our fears are all too capable of blinding us to this.

[vivalarevolución]

No, the governors refusing refugees is bullshit fear mongering and political pandering. I would appreciate if these geniuses could focus on reducing the 12,000 or so homicides that occur every year in the United States rather than focus on being dicks to people fleeing a war torn homeland. The internal threats that the United States breeds among the impoverished sectors of its own citizenry are a bigger threat than any refugees. If these governors actually cared about their citizens, they would be stepping up gun control and putting serious funds into revitilizing economically distressed areas that breed crime and providing more opportunities for at risk youth before they become criminals.

About the same number of people died by homicide in my city (Indianapolis) last year as the number than died in the Paris attacks. Most of the murderers and victims were involved in criminal activity, unlike the victims in Paris, so I guess that is a difference, but a life is a life. So the annual murder rate of my city is about equal to the 2nd (?) largest non-state terrorist attack in European Union since World War Two.

So what's the bigger danger here? Something that has a small probability of happening? Or something that does actually happen?

[photekq]

The BNP campaigns on deporting all non-whites. The Nazis campaigned on deporting all Jews. We know how that ended.

There's a difference between deportation and genocide. I sincerely doubt that the BNP has any underlying desire to commit another holocaust.

Again, I resent the use of the word 'xenophobia'. It's nothing but another buzzword that makes no sense. There's no irrational 'fear' - you don't see people screaming and running for their lives at the sight of non-whites. Use the word racist to describe UKIP voters if you want (I'll disagree with that too) but get out with that 'xenophobic' rubbish.

There are plenty of racist UKIP voters, but there are far, far more who aren't. Really, wanting to leave the EU and get rid of the forced open door immigration policy is not a view held only by racists. It's something that makes sense to a lot of people who just do not see the supposed "benefits" of immigration : "Diversity", "we need them to keep our aging population virile and young", "we need them to prop our economy up", "they'll pay for our pensions". Bollocks. No possible benefit that large scale immigration brings is worth the irreversible and drastic change we'll see in our societies and countries. For example : the problem of an aging population. How about we take a page out of Putin's book? He did a good job kickstarting the birth rate in Russia without mass immigration.

I should note that I'm not a UKIP voter or supporter. I don't support any political party.

[Muirium]

I say Xenophobia because it's broader than racism. Ukip isn't just racist. They hate Poles and Irish too. They fear everything that isn't their (fictitious) image of Britain.

I particularly enjoyed the hypocrisy of Ukip's campaigning on the No side in the Scottish independence referendum. The I in UKIP doesn't apply for Scotland. Just as their sense of who deserves to benefit from, pay for, or work in our public services, or our island, doesn't apply to anyone besides their racist, xenophobic, undereducated English base.

[photekq]

That's where I disagree with UKIP. I agree with their desire to leave the EU and change our immigration policy, but I don't agree with their hatred towards Eastern Europe. Ireland though? I hadn't heard about that.