A new US Republican thread 2016

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

26 Jul 2016, 14:51

vivalarevolución wrote: The media fuels the endless debate. They have turned the whole process into a never-ending reality show because their customers eat it up. Ratings and sales, ratings and sales, ratings and sales.

We tend to forget that the purpose of television is to sell things and provide entertainment. It is an advertising and entertainment platform. If you can appeal to a wide audience or firmly capture a niche audience (HGTV, HBO, ESPN, Cartoon Network, Fox News, you get the point.), you can keep ratings high enough to keep advertisements rolling in or people subscribed.

Now if you want to retain your sanity, turn off the television so you can hear the voices in your own head.
That's a good point. And what an abundance of material for the media there is, Trump alone could fill a show which is kind of what this is really. And yes the whole duration is crazy also. Any Chancellor of Germany is voted in 14 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_Germany

Slightly offtopic, Michelle Obama’s full speech at the 2016 Democratic National Convention:

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fohat
Elder Messenger

26 Jul 2016, 18:12

seebart wrote:
Slightly offtopic, Michelle Obama’s full speech at the 2016 Democratic National Convention:
TL;DR version:

"That is the story of this country. The story that has brought me to the stage tonight. The story of generations of people who felt the lash of bondage, the shame of servitude, the sting of segregation, but who kept on striving and hoping and doing what needed to be done so that today, I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves. And I watch my daughters, two beautiful intelligent black young women playing with their dog on the White House lawn. And because of Hillary Clinton, my daughters and all of our sons and daughters now take for granted that a woman can be president of the United States. So don't let anyone ever tell you that this country isn't great—that somehow we need to make it great again. Because this right now is the greatest country on Earth."

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

26 Jul 2016, 18:16

I'd say she can hold better speeches than her husband, maybe that's why Mrs. Trump used parts of her speeches. :lol:

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webwit
Wild Duck

26 Jul 2016, 20:03

Who cares about these speeches? They are written by lying weasels for irrelevant people. Who cares about Mrs. Trump or Michele Obama? Who the fuck are they? I don't even know if our prime minister is gay or not and have no clue who is his partner. I couldn't care less where he puts it in.

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

26 Jul 2016, 20:29

I have seen better ranting from you webwit! Also you did not mention the words wedding bomber.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

26 Jul 2016, 21:33

The United States is the ultimate narcissistic country, being so obsessed with its own perceived greatness for so long. Why can't we just admit that we are good at some things, average at others, could use improvement is some areas? Why must we focus so much on comparison to others about past/present/future greatness? Why is it so hard to admit weakness or fault, accept criticism, or have a meaningful conversation regarding self-awareness and improvement? Perhaps Trump is the perfect leader for our country, the culmination of the textbook narcissist leading a narcissistic land.

While we are talking about the speech, my personal evaluation of the history of the United States is that the country was build on pillage and violence against land and people, and outright exclusion and discrimination. The rights and privileges we have today are the result of ordinary people that fought and sometimes died for an ideal that they knew may not be realized in their lifetime (i am not just talking about young soldiers, who often are caught up in imperialistic military ventures). They did not rely on leaders to give them what they thought was right or make inspiring speeches.

jacobolus

27 Jul 2016, 06:00

webwit wrote: Who cares about these speeches?
Obviously webwit doesn’t care about the pageantry of US politics.

We all understand that. So why are you here?
vivalarevolución wrote: The United States is the ultimate narcissistic country,
Oh come on. How much traveling have you done? There’s an awful lot of nationalism and ego everywhere in the world.

The US just has a stronger military and economy, more cultural influence, more media, and more world attention focused on its politics.

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webwit
Wild Duck

27 Jul 2016, 10:59

Maybe you should try better than farting in here.

Your whole response to my argument consists of a personal dismissal.

Your whole response to viva's elaborate argument consists of a personal dismissal, and pointing to other nations.

Yeah, we all remembered Putin's wife speech. And how China invaded the Middle East.

jacobolus

27 Jul 2016, 11:36

Well e.g. the crusades and the Mongol empire were before my time, but plenty of people have invaded the Middle East in the last few thousand years.

More recently, it’s been a central point of world contention because (a) there’s a valuable canal there linking Europe to Asia through which a huge proportion of world trade travels, (b) it’s full of holy places for various world religions, and most importantly (c) it’s the largest source of oil, the fuel on which the entire modern economy is based. Outside powers (US, UK, France, Russia, China, etc.) jockey for influence there, and nations in the region (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, Israel, etc.) have a long history of conflicts and internal strife. It’s hard to tease out which of those conflicts are organic vs. motivated by outside inflence. But needless to say, the US is not alone in creating geopolitical problems in the region. It just happens to be the nation with by far the most expensive/expansive military in the world, and therefore has the largest impact among world actors.

You’ll note that back in the 17th–18th century when it was a world power with a global empire instead of a tiny inward-focused country in a quaint corner of Europe, the Netherlands used to undertake and sponsor all kinds of unpopular activity, such as war, political assassination, slaughter of civilians, piracy, slavery, extortion, double-crossing business deals, etc. In those days, people elsewhere in the world cared about Dutch politics. Today, not so much.

From what I understand, modern Dutch people don’t think too much about the country’s colonial legacy, or the environmental and human rights record of Royal Dutch Shell, etc.

* * *

Putin isn’t married. He divorced his wife. In any case, why would a despotic dictator with a macho image who is proud to sleep around with various supermodels want to put a woman on a political stage? It’s entirely against his political image, and wouldn’t provide any benefit to him. More to the point, Russia doesn’t have a democratic system of government. Putin doesn’t face a competitive election, and has little need to make an affirmative case for his leadership in the form of a televised election rally. Russia is a one-party state which is operated essentially like a criminal gang or medieval monarchy.

Trump put his wife and whole family on stage at the GOP convention primarily because they needed to fill 4 days of programming and literally couldn’t find enough serious GOP politicians to pad out the schedule (they were all hiding away for fear of tarnishing their own future careers), but also because his family was supposed to paint him in a sympathetic light, as contrast to Trump’s “the apocalypse is coming and only I can save you” rant.

Clinton put her husband on stage at the Dems’ convention because Bill Clinton is one of the best orators in the country, well known and widely respected by Americans. She put Michelle Obama up there because Michelle Obama is pretty much the most popular and positively rated political figure in the country right now, as well as being a powerful speaker herself. (Of course, it’s easier to be well liked when you don’t need to take responsibility for any unpopular decisions.)

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

27 Jul 2016, 14:25

jacobolus wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: The United States is the ultimate narcissistic country,
Oh come on. How much traveling have you done? There’s an awful lot of nationalism and ego everywhere in the world.

The US just has a stronger military and economy, more cultural influence, more media, and more world attention focused on its politics.
What does my personal travel experience have to do with the United States political obsession with its own perceived greatness and general arrogance/ignorance towards other nations and cultures? How well can I understand the ego and nationalism in other countries when I can't speak the language?

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fohat
Elder Messenger

27 Jul 2016, 16:19

vivalarevolución wrote:
jacobolus wrote:
There’s an awful lot of nationalism and ego everywhere in the world.
How well can I understand the ego and nationalism in other countries
At least nations have a more valid claim on "personhood" than corporations do.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

27 Jul 2016, 16:36

fohat wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote:
jacobolus wrote:
There’s an awful lot of nationalism and ego everywhere in the world.
How well can I understand the ego and nationalism in other countries
At least nations have a more valid claim on "personhood" than corporations do.
But I thought corporations were legally people, in many respects?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

27 Jul 2016, 18:50

That discussion about the "ultimate narcissistic country" reminds me of the Germans claiming they have the worst bureaucracy in the world.
Obviously they have never lived in France, and when I was in Madagascar and Algeria decades ago, I found it even worse there.
On the other hand, Italy is said to have a brilliant record as far as bureaucracy is concerned - but I have never been confronted to it.

So I think it is better, when making comparisons, to stick to what one personally knows,
which would quite exclude any superlative :mrgreen:

jacobolus

27 Jul 2016, 20:12

vivalarevolución wrote: What does my personal travel experience have to do with the United States political obsession with its own perceived greatness and general arrogance/ignorance towards other nations and cultures? How well can I understand the ego and nationalism in other countries when I can't speak the language?
So in other words, “ultimate narcissism” = “only country I am familiar with, and seems pretty full of itself”? Well okay then.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

27 Jul 2016, 21:36

jacobolus wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote: What does my personal travel experience have to do with the United States political obsession with its own perceived greatness and general arrogance/ignorance towards other nations and cultures? How well can I understand the ego and nationalism in other countries when I can't speak the language?
So in other words, “ultimate narcissism” = “only country I am familiar with, and seems pretty full of itself”? Well okay then.
You are more intelligent than reducing this argument to assumptions of my personal life experience and knowledge of the world beyond the borders of the country of my birth, and you know it. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

My argument of nationalistic narcissism is based on our ruling parties' incessant assertions about the USA being the greatest country in the world, but seemingly oblivious or sensitive to all the things we do not do well, in the collective sense. I doubt that you will find too many other governments or countries so concerned with the status as being the greatest and projecting that idea across the world, while being so oblivious to their glaring faults and how it might endanger our relationship with people and governments from outside our border. This sort of narcissism that seems to be an embedded part of US culture and practiced by our citizens has, in my belief, been a factor to the rise of a textbook narcissist as one of two very real options to lead our land.

When I recount my personal experiences with narcissists and then examine the way that our leaders and citizens tend to discuss our country, my conclusions is that the USA has a problem with projecting a narcissistic image, perhaps more than any other nation. My discussions with immigrants and foreign citizens have helped me understand that many Americans are completely unaware of the images we project and the status of our institutions, both as individuals and a collective entity. I also would love to flesh out the symptoms of narcissism and compare those to the ideas driven into us in our education system and images projected by our nation and the statements uttered by oue ruling parties.

Now do i completely understand how the governments and political parties and citizens in every other sovereign nation view themselves in comparison with the rest of the world, in order to publish a scholarly article in a peer-reviewed journey that the US is the ultimate narcissistic country? No. Nobody does, it is impossible to fully understand that breadth of material considering that it takes years of living in a country to gain a firm understanding of the many aspects of that country's culture and how it varies among the regions and social classes (For example, I may never understand why Bostonians seem so pissed all the time).

But please, just keep insinuating that I am some provincial Midwestern that has lived in a bubble completely unaware of the other places on Earth.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

27 Jul 2016, 22:13

vivalarevolución wrote:
But I thought corporations were legally people, in many respects?
I was jokingly paralleling and contrasting the emotional "notion" of national personhood as "too many non-Americans think that we citizens are individually more like Trump rather than like Sanders" to the legal abomination technicality of corporate US personhood, which began in earnest with a bad decision by a corrupt Reconstruction-era Supreme Court.

But, to the "national narcissism" point, ordinary people in the US hold vastly different viewpoints on what America "is" and what its role in the world should be. After occupying a powerful and often dominant role through most of the 20th century, a Trump-esque chauvinism still compels a large chunk of the population who has not been willing or able to envision a diminished US role on the world stage.

jacobolus

28 Jul 2016, 03:40

vivalarevolución wrote: I doubt that you will find too many other governments or countries so concerned with the status as being the greatest and projecting that idea across the world, while being so oblivious to their glaring faults and how it might endanger our relationship with people and governments from outside our border. This sort of narcissism that seems to be an embedded part of US culture and practiced by our citizens has, in my belief, been a factor to the rise of a textbook narcissist as one of two very real options to lead our land.
You’ll find many other countries (i.e. aggregate opinions of citizens) and governments which are concerned with their own self-image and projecting a particular image to the world.

In places ruled by authoritarian / quasi-authoritarian governments, the nationalist pro-government propaganda is dramatically more in-your-face than anywhere I’ve ever seen in the US, and that includes, say, the Alamo. When I was in Azerbaijan in 2003, for example, every public building had a literal shrine to the recently dead dear leader. In conversations with Azeris, nearly every conversation was steered into two topics of primary importance, first, how Azerbaijan was the first and greatest country in the world (to me, that seemed laughable, but they were dead serious), and second, how Armenians were evil thieves who all deserved to die. If you look around the world, the story is much the same in many other countries. Though I haven’t been there, I’ve talked to plenty of friends who have, and Russia by all accounts has just as much self censorship, with more dramatic consequences for dissidents. Talking to folks in China, there is an incredible amount of semi-blind nationalism, supported by government censorship and media control. Don’t try discussing the geopolitics of the South China Sea, or Taiwan, or Tibet, or the history of Maoism. In many Islamic countries, nationalism has been partially replaced by transnational religious identity, but plenty of the most politically visible and empowered folks believe in some kind of coming Islamic power which will stand up to the west in a titanic struggle.

Some countries and groups have more of a victim complex identity. If you talk to some Israelis, you’ll hear less about how they’re the greatest world power, and more about how they’re the most righteous, beset on all sides by evil terrorist enemies. But don’t try to have a serious conversation about collective punishment, murder, illegal imprisonment, etc. of Arab civilians by the Israeli government, you won’t get anywhere.

Some countries have a self image as being more cultured, or more civilized, or more industrious, or having better taste, etc. Small countries in places like Europe where many languages are spoken within easy driving distance, (a) tend to be a bit more cosmopolitan in aggregate, and (b) have a lot more direct international experience, and (c) have much less dominant power to project around the world. In some places, the great majority of young people see themselves as world citizens, with liberal internationalist ideals, etc. But there’s plenty of condescension to go around. These folks will often either dodge questions about local immigrant minority populations, or take credit for kindness taking in those poor ungrateful wretches. Etc. Etc. Or try talking to a German about how the EU has screwed the Greeks and Spanish.

In some countries, there are enough pressing local concerns (disease, civil war, local corruption, food security, massive unemployment, etc.) that discussion doesn’t revolve around nationalist power projection onto the world stage.

Within the US, there are wide cultural differences from one part of the country to another. If you spend time living in the pacific northwest, you’ll get an entirely different set of cultural/political priorities than in the midwest, or the south, or Southern CA, or Miami, or the northeast.

There is surely a great deal of ugly nationalism, xenophobia, military triumphalism, “we’re number one, USA, USA, USA” nonsense in the US. US foreign policy of the past century has often been incredibly destructive and self-defeating, and US money props up a lot of really nasty foreign governments.

But Americans don’t have any kind of monopoly on egocentrism, “narcissism”, stupid arguments, etc. The US just happens to have more geopolitical influence at the moment, so whatever traits you find seem exaggerated compared to some tiny country that doesn’t threaten anyone.

In my personal opinion, arguments about how uniquely self centered Americans are are basically the same structurally as whatever narrow-minded narcissism they’re supposed to be analyzing/critiquing.

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webwit
Wild Duck

28 Jul 2016, 09:59

I also claim to be an expert of countries all over the world, based on a few tourist trips, so I can proceed to have grandiose arguments.

For example, I went to the US a couple of days, to a place called Charleston. In conversations with the locals (my cab driver, hotel receptionist and a couple I met at a bar) I learned what is important for Americans and this country of America: Trump and gun rights.

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Wodan
ISO Advocate

28 Jul 2016, 10:56

webwit wrote: For example, I went to the the deep south a couple of days, to a place called Charleston. In conversations with the locals (my cab driver, hotel receptionist and a couple I met at a bar) I learned what is important for Americans and this country of America: Trump and gun rights.
Corrected that for you

jacobolus

28 Jul 2016, 11:10

Webwit: thanks for making my point for me.

Namely, the world is a large and complex place, mostly decent hard-working folks trying to get along, but a nice sprinkling of blowhards and fraudsters and thugs everywhere, and plenty of regular people with ugly prejudices too. No group of millions of residents, or complex set of institutions comprising thousands or millions of individual people, can be characterized by any single simple summary. No one country has a monopoly on goodness, or hard work, or community, or stupidity, or egoism, or xenophobia, or hate.

Which is why we should, all of us, strive to fight the ugliness in our own communities, and fight to keep social discourse respectful, cooperative, and hopeful. And why we should try to contextualize and qualify our statements, instead of making “grandiose” claims.

Politics is *always* messy, disappointing, frustrating, controversial. In free societies, those conflicts take place in full public view. In other places, those conflicts are suppressed, and a veneer of tranquility masks unreported struggle.

jacobolus

28 Jul 2016, 11:29

But there’s controversy, and then there’s controversy. There is a *categorical* difference between disagreements about estate tax rates, marriage equality, public spending on education and scientific research, immigration policy, drug legalization, environmental regulations, gun control measures, trade agreements, workers benefits, resource extraction on public lands, police surveillance powers, etc., ...

vs. calling millions of immigrants rapists, accusing a major world religions of being incompatible with freedom, suggesting without evidence that a locally born judge makes decisions based on foreign sympathies, publicly demanding protection money from allies in a longstanding mutual defense treaty, proposing to fire broad swaths of the civil service if they were appointed by the opposite party, cavalierly promoting meddling in local elections by foreign intelligence services, suggesting that the country might declare bankruptcy and repay its bondholders at a steep discount, threatening to shut down media outlets for their investigative reporting, who says we need to bring back torture and thinks we should give up on the Geneva conventions, etc. etc. etc.

The latter are the fever dreams of a proudly clueless wannabe tyrant. We can see places in the world where such behavior has won (albeit with somewhat savvier autocrats). Erdogan’s Turkey is an example recently in the news. For the same to happen in the USA would be an epic disaster for the entire world.

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webwit
Wild Duck

28 Jul 2016, 12:49

I've never seen such elaborate whataboutism. The US should get the fuck out of the MO and in general quit the warmongering. Azerbaijan is not relevant and has not been invading the MO. Medieval Dutch demand for spices is also not relevant.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

28 Jul 2016, 14:45

jacobolus wrote: Webwit: thanks for making my point for me.

Namely, the world is a large and complex place, mostly decent hard-working folks trying to get along, but a nice sprinkling of blowhards and fraudsters and thugs everywhere, and plenty of regular people with ugly prejudices too. No group of millions of residents, or complex set of institutions comprising thousands or millions of individual people, can be characterized by any single simple summary. No one country has a monopoly on goodness, or hard work, or community, or stupidity, or egoism, or xenophobia, or hate.

Which is why we should, all of us, strive to fight the ugliness in our own communities, and fight to keep social discourse respectful, cooperative, and hopeful. And why we should try to contextualize and qualify our statements, instead of making “grandiose” claims.

Politics is *always* messy, disappointing, frustrating, controversial. In free societies, those conflicts take place in full public view. In other places, those conflicts are suppressed, and a veneer of tranquility masks unreported struggle.
I don't find the lecture necessary, because your worldview is very similar to mine. Yes, our statements absolutely need qualification and context, so to avoid that broad brush. Yes, I understand that other governments project an image or have a strong thread of nationalism and people all over the world unfairly and inaccurately label others. I understand that everyone is not the sum of their national identify or groups of millions of people do not exhibit all the same characteristics simply because they are from the same place. I don't like to use nationalistic labels, or labels of any other kind, as a means to completely understand a person, as we all deserve to be treated and understood as individuals with basic respect of human rights, not as some frickin category or label. We are all in this circus together.

You don't need to travel the world to understand the things you discuss. Getting out of one's hometown might be a good start, as staying in one place a person's entire life has a limiting effect. Although Kant was quite knowledgeable and he barely traveled, so anything is possible.

But I don't think these ideas should allow us to ignore statistical trends that exhibit the prevalence of ideas or occurrences in a place among a population. My entire narcissistic nationalism argument is based on the idea that perhaps no country is better at projecting an image of superiority, obsessed with its own greatness, using these beliefs to invade others space and harm others, and so sensitive about truth that it may not be the best or the greatest. And a greater portion of the citizens in the country actually belief this nonsense is justified. We are somewhat isolated from other countries, so our direct exposure to better institutions is limited and probably fuels these beliefs. It goes beyond ego, nationalism, xenophobia, ignorance, or self image. I'm talking about a characteristic pattern of behavior among the ruling parties, foreign policy, and citizens beliefs that lead to the USA being viewed as the most narcissistic nation on the planet, both within and abroad:

http://www.citylab.com/work/2015/12/the ... ts/419853/

And this prevalence of narcissistic nationalism, along with poor mental health awareness and mediocre education system in many areas, has helped fuel the rise of a nutter like Trump. That's the gist of my argument.

My argument is not solely about self-centeredness of Americans compared to other citizens of the world, as i know human beings are mostly self centered, irrational, and unreasonable, strongly influenced by emotions rather than actual evidence. The harm that my government has put on other parts of the world and how so many of us believe this is justified, is my main concern.
Last edited by vivalarevolución on 28 Jul 2016, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

28 Jul 2016, 15:00

Anyways, if anyone wants to go to South Africa for the first couple weeks in September and do some field research to compare nationalist identities, let me know, my traveler partner fell through and the trip is in shambles. It would be nice to salvage something.

jacobolus

29 Jul 2016, 08:16

Good luck with the trip.

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vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

29 Jul 2016, 14:35

jacobolus wrote: Good luck with the trip.
Thank you! It's looking rather bleak, though.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

03 Aug 2016, 14:22

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... mp/480771/

Most memorable quote:

“an existence unmolested by the rumbling of a soul.”

rootwyrm

03 Aug 2016, 16:17

fohat wrote: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... mp/480771/

Most memorable quote:

“an existence unmolested by the rumbling of a soul.”
... without the burden of a troublesome conscience, and freed of the fetters of even the suggestion of intelligence.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

06 Aug 2016, 15:41

It is all really starting to come into focus now:

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/12271042/d ... -explained

I know that it is a lengthy read, but well worth it.

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chuckdee

06 Aug 2016, 16:55

Young boy to Pence: Are you Trump's apologist?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/m ... ump-226666

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