The Oracle Answers

[araif]

mh no I don't have any material, and a 40% seems to be too small, I would like to not wait too much time also. (yeah I'm picky!).

[Muirium]

40% probably is too small. Even a 60% regular like me finds it hard to use!

I'd ask around to see if anyone's selling their Yoda (it came out six months or so back, originally, before going on MassDrop), And if you want a real mech with a nub, look into a Unicomp Endurapro! (Great so long as you don't mind noise, losing a whole lot of desk space, and far from the best rollover under the sun…)

[araif]

ok first of all the yoda is a hell of a kb, if I hand't specified the trackpoint though what would be a good option? sorry for iterating this.

[Muirium]

Well, let's see, what else was there?

hello mighty oracle,
I'm searching for a (first) good keyboard suited for typing code, I spend a lot of time on the kb and prevalently using emacs, I'm beginning to feel some pain to my pinky and so I began searching in this realm of mech.

Now I'm evaluating to build one, I saw some ergonomic keyboard, or 60%, or ortholinear, or something that has a clit in the middle (because I don't want to leave the kb!), I really can't decide... From what I saw around I will be good with cherry mx clear and red for modifiers, I have somewhat small hands and sometime I type things that has non ansi chars èéìç. The keyboards that I saw and intrigued me was atomic, ergodox, poker II, http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/mini ... 5-120.html (this that has the clit), *probably* I'm not really ok with 40%..I already have a teensy 2.0 so let the fun begin!

I summon you oracle!

Perhaps some clearer priorities? A list doesn't hurt. My read of what you said was something like this:

• Interested in alternate layouts and form factors.
• Looking to reduce RSI.
• No mention of gaming, so we can probably downplay NKRO and maybe backlighting. (Kids nowadays…)
• Not afraid to build one for yourself.
• Dazzled by the options.
• Oh, and would like a clit.

Suggestions would be easier if you could be more specific about the other stuff. There's very few mechs with trackpoints - as far as I know, the Yoda is the only compact sized one you can buy today - so we homed right in on that. But otherwise, you're thinking out loud and I don't have a handle on which way to point you.

If you have RSI problems building up, I'd suggest light switches (MX red: yes, MX clear: hell NO!!) which you could find in a Poker, for example. The good thing about that board is you can try several things at once. A 60% layout, of course, and if you get the first generation (PCB mount) model, you can open the switches easily and explore MX to your heart's content. I've got some lighter than MX red springs on the way, for instance.

And if you really like 60%, you could always then go for a pricey but RSI friendly HHKB…

But your priorities are yours to set. I'm just thinking out loud here too.

[araif]

you summarized all my points very well, I'll try to repeat because you spent effort trying to answer:

* 60% keyboard
* I don't game
* interested in different form factors (like in the ergodox or atomic) because I saw that the first thing that is giving me a little of pain is the pinkie and probably having the hands in a more natural position would help, but maybe just changing this poor rubberdome would give me heaven (yeah I know I should experiment here)
* for reducing the movement of the right hand I saw that someone has built kbs with trackpoints and I was interested in hearing if there was something people builded with that support
* more work to the thumbs, maybe fn keys there (cited the atomic http://atomickeyboard.com/ space saver because of this, here: does the ortholinear gives advantages in typing in terms of fatigue and precision? )
* being reprogrammable is a plus, so I'm not afraid of building one myself if cheaper or has more features
price range maybe 160$?

For the switch type I was thinking of putting red on the modifiers and having something with more feedback on the rest of the fingers, but yeah I think I should try the possibilities and spend some money/time here.

If nothing goes I think I will first try searching for a cheap poker, experimenting with the layout and the switches (I think I found a cheap one used with blues and I don't mind the loudness for now).
For the rsi thing I feel that if I don't do something now I will regret in the future, I don't have big pain but the weaker finger has too much to do, and I see no inventives in the hhkb aside from topre switches everyone likes, because I can remap keys if I wantand forgetting of the usual control and alt keys down there.

[Muirium]

Not everyone likes Topre. Those who fail to recognise its sublime nature are harshly judged for their error!

Well, something like that. The thing is there is no universally superior switch. Everyone has their favourites, which they must discover for themselves. I like Topre because of the smooth tactility, and the fact they actuate nice and high up. They're a very relaxing switch for me, compared to all the heavy beasts I have around here which I like for other reasons!

The same is kind of sort of true for ergonomics. I don't hear many people saying ortholinear (unstaggered) layouts are better for typing, but there's certainly a contingent for symmetric stagger out there, and quite a lot of devotees for thumb keys of various styles.

The ErgoDox would certainly make for a valuable exploration. If you're in Europe, Czarek might be worth considering:

http://falbatech.pl/prestashop/index.php

[araif]

I'm a bit investingating on topre, supposing i can find every one at 230$, what do you prefer, hhkb pro2 (type s or not), fc660c, realforce 87u ?

[Muirium]

The Leopold gets a lot of love. Elite Keyboards used to sell all of the above in the US, but dropped Leopold completely.

I recently bought a Type-S HHKB in Japan and will review it soon, once it arrives. Cheaper over there than at EK. And nowhere sells them at all here in Europe!

[seebart]

well I'm giving Topre another shot with my recently acquired HHKB after I did not like the Realforce variable. Can't wait for those caps to get here...

[Muirium]

What’s so wrong with the board right now? Can’t see the legends? You’re doing it wrong!

[seebart]

What’s so wrong with the board right now? Can’t see the legends? You’re doing it wrong!

quit your jokes Mu, you know damn well there are no legends and I can't "wing it" on that layout!

[gatherjunk]

is this http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cf ... /id/586198 identical to a model M except for the keycaps? It's $30 cheaper than the '89 regular kind.

[Muirium]

That *is* a Model M, just with customised caps for an airline:

Essentially the same design, construction, and quality materials as the more common IBM model M 1391401 (works just like any other keyboard). Key caps were customed for Sabre Travel Network reservations systems for American Airlines. Has additional distinguishing labels printed in green on side of key caps (FLIFO = flight info), (TKT = ticket info), (GFAX, FONE, SEG, I-SAB, CLSVC, CSS, IAS, SOM, EMEM, EOP, EOL)

People tend to value those caps more than the usual ones.

[gatherjunk]

That *is* a Model M, just with customised caps for an airline:

Essentially the same design, construction, and quality materials as the more common IBM model M 1391401 (works just like any other keyboard). Key caps were customed for Sabre Travel Network reservations systems for American Airlines. Has additional distinguishing labels printed in green on side of key caps (FLIFO = flight info), (TKT = ticket info), (GFAX, FONE, SEG, I-SAB, CLSVC, CSS, IAS, SOM, EMEM, EOP, EOL)

People tend to value those caps more than the usual ones.

I was tied up on the word 'essentially'. Odd that it would be cheaper if they were more desirable keycaps. Not a huge fan of the keycaps but I can deal with them, very tempting to get it.

[Muirium]

Price very much depends on the seller. A lot of people don't know what they've got on their hands.

It is a PS/2 board, right? One thing that always dents the price is an RJ45 lookalike terminal connector instead of the regular SDL port and PS/2 cable. Nothing Soarer's Converter can't handle (I have one myself) but not as easy or as generally desired as the PS/2 models.

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-m ... t6407.html

[gatherjunk]

Ha, oh man, it sold out before my eyes. Either it was bought in the last hour or they just updated the site.

[fohat]

I recently got a second model M. It's a 1391401 made on 01-10-1992 in the Usa. The text (ie Home, End, PgUp etc) below the digits on the numpad have a lightbrown colour.

This differs from my UK 1995 made model M, where the text on the numpad is black. Is the lightbrown colour something that is standard for all 1391401 ones?

There were multiple variations.

If you contact clickykeyboards.com they will ask whether you need light or dark brown, light or dark gray, or black for the secondary legends. Personally, I like the brown ones.

There are also (more rare) blue and orange secondary legends.

[guk]

Oh mighty Oracle,

please identify this pwetty keyboard for me: www.ebay.de/itm/301504413453
Didn't find much yet, only a different Intel MDS Keyboard on ebay.com http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-KEYBOARD- ... 1230890024

[andrewjoy]

Oh wise oracle

i am looking for a 60% keybord

the closest that i want is or original KBC poker however i want the caps to be of the standard type where i can replace them with standard ansi replacement cap sets

it would be nice if it shipped with dyesub PBT caps

i don't want backlighting

it needs to be programmable

( so basically a programmable poker with better caps but better built ( plate ) )

[Muirium]

Sounds just like the Poker II! The programmability is no match for Soarer or Hasu. Does have a programmable layer though.

[Hypersphere]

Oh wise oracle

i am looking for a 60% keybord

the closest that i want is or original KBC poker however i want the caps to be of the standard type where i can replace them with standard ansi replacement cap sets

it would be nice if it shipped with dyesub PBT caps

i don't want backlighting

it needs to be programmable

( so basically a programmable poker with better caps but better built ( plate ) )

It is rumored that the Pok3r (Poker 3) will be available relatively soon. They say it will be completely programmable. I presume it will use Cherry mx switches, and if you like any of their switches, this could be the board for you.

If you don't need complete programmability, for example, if you can use remapping software such as Karabiner for the Mac, then there are other possibilities, including the Poker II (still available from qtan), HHKB Pro 2, and KBP V60. The V60 is available with Cherry mx or Matias switches. The V60 Matias is not backlit.

FYI, I am typing this on my V60 Matias Click keyboard, remapped to a Mac/HHKB layout using Karabiner. I have replaced the stock ABS caps with blank black mods and spacebar from Matias and dye-sub PBT alphanumeric caps from an IBM 5140. I really enjoy this keyboard!

[andrewjoy]

oh trust me if thick dyesub pbt where readily available for alps/Matias then there would be a V60 with modded liners with the slicer removed on the way right now . But i think due to the cap availability ( i love thick PBT! imsto caps ftw!) i need cherry and standard ANSI at that

now if i could have my dream layout and sets existed for it

http://deskthority.net/resources/dream-layout/15319

thats the dream right there who needs big ass enter when you can have a 9.5 U spacebar !

[Muirium]

If anyone's removing their Matias dampers, send them my way. Damped clickies are on my todo list.

[ramnes]

If anyone's removing their Matias dampers, send them my way. Damped clickies are on my todo list.

You can get them from an AEKII, it should be compatible. I don't have any Matias switch to try, though.

(And I have four AEKIIs + one pack of AEKII dampers in my room right now, just saying... )

[Hypersphere]

I enjoy the full-bore clickiness of my Matias [Tactile] Click switches! On the other hand, I appreciate that the Matias Quiet switches are, in fact, quiet. My perception is that they are quieter than the silenced Topres in my Type-S HHKB Pro 2. However, although the Matias Quiet switches seem to have the same tactile feedback as the Matias Click switches, the typing experience seems more complete with the click. The experience is quite similar to typing on IBM capacitive buckling springs (Model F).

Regarding thick vs thin PBT, I think this also depends at least somewhat on the switch. Although I have appreciated thick PBT caps on Cherry mx boards, some of the best dye-sub PBT caps are found on Topre RF, PFU HHKB Pro 2, and vintage IBM boards, and all of these caps are relatively thin. From this, I have concluded that caps needn't be thick to be of high quality, and this includes appearance, sound, and feel.

[Muirium]

But what about the harsh topping out sound those clicky switches make?

I want to make them pure. So that the click is the only sound they produce, instead of one of several, with all the bottoming and topping outs. Bottoming out I can control as a typist, so topping out is the one I really want to remove!

[guk]

Oh mighty Oracle,

please identify this pwetty keyboard for me: http://www.ebay.de/itm/301504413453

If that one is unknown to your sources, how about this one? http://www.ebay.de/itm/111585296389

[seebart]

Oh mighty Oracle,

please identify this pwetty keyboard for me: http://www.ebay.de/itm/301504413453

If that one is unknown to your sources, how about this one? http://www.ebay.de/itm/111585296389

both are interesting. The second one has some nasty keycap damage.

[Nuum]

WTF happened to those keycaps?

[guk]

Those just are some scratches, didn't you guys read the article description?

Looks like some evil person tried to set it on fire. But it survived - I hope.