minimalist keyboards - WHY?

jacobolus

05 Feb 2016, 20:35

zslane wrote: Hardcopy books are so 20th century...
The codex is great from a human factors perspective. Much better designed than the standard keyboard.

If you said “we citizens of the Roman Empire should stop using scrolls and switch to bound codices” I’d be right there with you though. The codex was one of those inventions which took a few hundred years to really take over. Scrolls had a lot of historical inertia.

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Muirium
µ

05 Feb 2016, 21:08

Qwerty got another lease of life when it became ingrained in touch screens, too. Think of how many people who never typed before are now at it on their phones… in staggered Qwerty! Looks like we're stuck with the oddities of typewriters until we ditch using fingers for text entry entirely.

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zslane

05 Feb 2016, 22:15

Good point. After all, everyone who only knows how to type with their thumbs today could have been given any layout other than staggered Qwerty and not known the difference, or cared.

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jerue

06 Feb 2016, 02:07

Muirium wrote: Qwerty got another lease of life when it became ingrained in touch screens, too. Think of how many people who never typed before are now at it on their phones… in staggered Qwerty! Looks like we're stuck with the oddities of typewriters until we ditch using fingers for text entry entirely.
That's very true. I wonder what the state of the keyboard (and maybe even mouse) will be like once we can just use telepathy to communicate to our devices...with voice assistants that's kind of a scary reality.

Talk about ultra-minimalism...

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Muirium
µ

06 Feb 2016, 02:11

Telepathy isn't quite the right word, as the data collection would be done quite locally, but I get what you're saying and it will likely feel like that when it does eventually become reality.

I think we will have virtual displays first. Jacked right into the brain side of our visual system, by whatever artful means yet to be invented. I'd love an overlay ontop of reality that didn't need dumb glasses or other externally apparent gear. Same for sound. Might take a while for us to get deeper inside the human brain, to be able to detect precise desire. And at that point you're well into science fiction dystopia issues of the hardware controlling us as much as the other way around.

How advertising has wanted that access all along!

jacobolus

06 Feb 2016, 03:35

If someone could somehow make a device that does the opposite of a computer display, namely, records a 2-dimensional (or higher?) picture very quickly and with high fidelity based on what you can imagine in your mind’s eye, that would be amazing. Drawing pictures with a pen or other slow serialized input device based on muscle movements is very cumbersome.

I don’t think anyone is going to have better input devices for text than something roughly like either typing, speech recognition, or handwriting recognition any time soon though. With the right language design, I can imagine any of these getting pretty efficient, but they probably top out at about 500 wpm max.

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Muirium
µ

06 Feb 2016, 04:10

500 wpm sounds right. That's right about the speed Scots talk already.
As always, the idioms will be the biggest challenge. As I'm forever telling Siri: "Ach, wummun, dinnae talk pish!"

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Chyros

06 Feb 2016, 12:49

Muirium wrote: 500 wpm sounds right. That's right about the speed Scots talk already.
As always, the idioms will be the biggest challenge. As I'm forever telling Siri: "Ach, wummun, dinnae talk pish!"
HAHAHAHA LOOOL :lol:

I only understood about half of that xD . Transcription please?! :p

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0100010

06 Feb 2016, 18:10

The ultimate in minimalist keyboards, the CandyBar :

Image

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 36dbf84c03

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flabbergast

06 Feb 2016, 20:52

0100010 wrote: The ultimate in minimalist keyboards, the CandyBar :
Interesting. Someone's made that already, or is it your design?

Looks fun, if it's not patented or otherwise reserved, I might have a go at making a PCB for this.

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0100010

09 Feb 2016, 04:21

flabbergast wrote:
0100010 wrote: The ultimate in minimalist keyboards, the CandyBar :
Interesting. Someone's made that already, or is it your design?

Looks fun, if it's not patented or otherwise reserved, I might have a go at making a PCB for this.
Yes I designed it- was an exercise in minimalism only. I don't think it'd be all too practical. Feel free to build it.

RyanArr

09 Feb 2016, 23:36

Wonder what happened to TextBlade (https://waytools.com). Could call it a 9% board.

edit: fixed URL

c4clicky

10 Feb 2016, 00:24

0100010 wrote:
flabbergast wrote:
0100010 wrote: The ultimate in minimalist keyboards, the CandyBar :
Interesting. Someone's made that already, or is it your design?

Looks fun, if it's not patented or otherwise reserved, I might have a go at making a PCB for this.
Yes I designed it- was an exercise in minimalism only. I don't think it'd be all too practical. Feel free to build it.
I had a go at giving up on ZXCVBNM for a short-while and it wasn't as bad as I thought. I think you could actually reach a decent speed with that layout.

amospalla
let's go

10 Feb 2016, 00:27

For me a 60% is the best option right now. While touch typing there is nothing more annoying than losing track to the f/j keys. I already use the numeric keys on the upper side so the numeric right side has no use for me. Later I moved the middle column to the main keyboard with the help of a modifier, following some vim/readline style, and now I don't lose the f/j keys track again (thank you JIS layout ;) ).

All this is an advantage to me, but maybe spending so many hours on a keyboard on a daily basis helped me to get used to this way of using a keyboard. Sure, it takes some days, something like getting used to your first trackball.

The trackball is damn near right now, much more convenient. When I use some mate's keyboard I always have to move it a bit to the right so I can center the alfanumeric keyboard to my hands and that is another thing I don't need to do again on my setup. I don't need to balance anymore between having the keyboard centered or not having the pointer too far.

I've always assured I would only use complete standard keyboards with standard layout, and now I use a damn small JIS keyboard with a somewhat custom layout with the help of an usb converter. I couldn't have believed it two years ago and now here I am. Today I can't think about any other setup.

I can summarize that if I have not found a perfect setup then I am quite near with a 60% keyboard.

I have somewhat told this on some other topic, but I highly recommend trying the combo JIS + Hasu's usb converter. This opens the keyboard to a customization one can hardly reach with other methods, it ends with the complications of moving caps/control/escape, etc affair and software remapping setups, you don't care wether you are using the computer BIOS, you are using some OS, or that damn remapping method doesn't work on that damned program.
Last edited by amospalla on 10 Feb 2016, 00:39, edited 1 time in total.

jacobolus

10 Feb 2016, 00:37


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c2lknt

13 Feb 2016, 20:56

Hi everybody, I'm new here. But I have an opinion on small keyboards!

I think this thread is done with monitor talk, but I do want to point out that the term "retina" doesn't actually mean anything. It's a marketing term that has taken on a life beyond that. If we understand it to mean "a resolution where you can't see the pixels from where you're sitting," which is a fine definition, then it's absurd to claim that you can't see the pixels when you get closer. If it means that the pixels are so small that you can't see them with the natural, un-aided human eyeball, then just make a css box with a 1px line on your screen and see if you can see it.

My problem with The Koreans is just that I can't handle 27" (and last time I looked, they were all 27") - I like having 2 monitors, and 27" s just too big to have 2 of. Which brings me to the thread topic!

I have a huge desk, most of which is cluttered with crap - papers, wires, stuff I left around that my wife doesn't want to see lying around anymore. What I mean is - I have space, but all space will be cliuttered, no matter how much I have - but once you get to a 104, I just don't have enough space for the clutter I actually need and want nearby. There's also the gaming thing, which really exacerbates the arm-position problem - the "WASD-to-mouse" distance is quite far on a 104. I started using a Nostromo back before Razer acquired it, and I have a Razer model of it now - that's the ideal solution to that problem, for me. (Of course, now it's just more desk clutter, because I don't game as much anymore). I had a Wolf King briefly, like someone posted earlier, a few years ago, but I couldn't get the hang of it. I think it got carried away with itself, and went more for the *look* of ergonomics - and lost the actual ergonomics.

I would use a 60% on my desk, but my wife is addicted to dedicated arrow keys. I'm waiting on the MD Magicforce 68, which I hope will satisfy us both. Why a smaller keyboard on a larger desk? Mostly because the height of a TLK, or, the depth, I guess - the monitor stands are quite large and if I need to push the keyboard back to make room for cheetos, the smaller it is in that direction, the more cheetos I can eat.

(Just kidding. I'm a microwave popcorn with chopsticks guy.)

I also have a Planck, and I'm hoping to get an AMJ40. I really do travel with them! I take my 8" tablet (Nvidia Shield K1 ftw) and Planck to coffee shops or the library, or just onto the couch, and it's great.

Finally, as an attempt to address the core issue from the OP: I think the appeal is, for me, the elegance of a smaller keyboard. The idea of using no more than absolutely necessary is really attractive. Now, the reverse appeal - of the Hyper7 - wherein each key has only a single function - there's elegance there, too. As someone said, there's no way to objectively compare a preference or "taste" - but we can attempt to express ourselves, and, in doing so, reveal even to ourselves the nature of what appeals to us. As I like to say: the more we know about what we like, the more we understand ourselves.

I really liked Muirium's point - about how, the only reason 104 seems "full size" to us is because that's what we're used to. The chording we do there is somehow not minimalist, but the chording on a 60% is. WTB a copy button, or a paste button!

Finally, the remaining piece of interface I haven't touched on: the mouse. I think there's room for sites as dedicated as Deskthority (et al) for mice, but, unfortunately, mice are a bit harder to make in your garage - or so it seems to us today. I don't solder, so I won't be the one to start it, but there's plenty of room for improvement in mice. I'm using a logitech because I like a lot of buttons, but it'd ditch it in a minute if you showed me a custom mouse with the same elegance as the boards we see in mech threads.

jacobolus

13 Feb 2016, 21:26

c2lknt wrote: If we understand [retina] to mean "a resolution where you can't see the pixels from where you're sitting," which is a fine definition, then it's absurd to claim that you can't see the pixels when you get closer. If it means that the pixels are so small that you can't see them with the natural, un-aided human eyeball, then just make a css box with a 1px line on your screen and see if you can see it.
This is not a proper visual acuity test.

Instead, you should make a pattern of alternating 1px high stripes of white and black pixels, and put it next to a uniform gray of the same brightness, and see whether you can notice the pixels on one side.

Here’s a test image, which probably won’t appear correctly in your browser (i.e. one side will look darker than the other), because browsers are complete shit when it comes to color rendering:
Image

Open that up in Photoshop or something, at 100%.

(This is still not a perfect test, but much better than just a one pixel line.)

As for “retina”, sure it’s a marketing term, but it’s not meaningless. In practice, “retina” screens are a hell of a lot better than the ones before, even if they aren’t perfect. For example, there is a tremendous difference between ~100 dpi for a desktop display vs. >200 dpi for a desktop display. The “retina” iMac is an absolutely stunning display, as are similar 27' “5K” displays from other vendors.

I’d personally love to have 400 dpi displays on the desktop, and 800 dpi displays on mobile devices, but the ones we’ve had for the last few years are pretty darn nice. I’m happy Apple is out there pushing the whole industry forward.

TacticalCoder

13 Feb 2016, 22:48

seebart wrote: I'd love to get this 34" Dell UltraSharp U3415W, it's "only" € 707,34 right now. :o :( Nothing minimalist about it. 8-)
Very cool screen, my brother's got one: I had it at home to try it out: may replace my 27" with that 34" inch beauty. But I'd still use it with my HHKB Pro JP.

I'd argue that "minimalism" has not much to do with size but with "bloatness". You've got "minimalist amp" which basically have very few inputs, hardly any control at all, yet are sized like "regular" amps (there are also tiny amps but there's such a size as "full size" amps, but still minimalist). Or minimalist floorstanding loudspeakers which are very tall. Same for an appartment: you can have a big home or appartement but still have it be minimalist. My living room is kinda huge yet it's minimalist. Or cars: Donkervoort and Lotus are "minimalist cars": sure, they're a bit smaller than most cars but they're still cars. It's just that they don't come with the "kitchen sink" of buttons / controls / features.

In my opinion an ultra-slick 34" display can be more minimalist than, say, a 21" display which would have 10 visible buttons (from that standpoint my 27" is more minimalist than my 24").

Now regarding OP's question: the reason why I'm using an HHKB Pro JP (even though I don't speak japanese) is simple: less fingers travel.

I try to have all my most common shortcuts so that hands can stay on the home position, reaching the modifiers with my thumbs. Because the spacebar on the HHKB Pro JP is tiny, the modifiers are easier to reach. I also tend to "alternate" my common shortcuts: left hand's thumb (or pinky) for the modifier, right hand for the key.

To move the text cursor when I need to go in close vicinity I do mod+{ijkl} (where the modifier is the key at the left of the tiny spacebar). Hardly anything moves from the home row when doing that. With Ctrl+Shift+Meta/Alt to which I add Super and Hyper as modifiers, I've got plenty of "shortcuts from home row position" available.

In the same vein when I need to move the text cursor more than a few characters away I use Emacs' avy/ace-jump-mode (Vim's EasyMotion, IntelliJ's AceJump, etc.): this allows to move the text cursor to any character visible on screen in 4 to 5 keypresses. Nobody is beating that. This method is so efficient that several text editors / IDEs are now adding it.

I'm using my mouse left-handed so the "TKL / mouse easier to reach" is not why I'm using a 60% (and I'm using a tiling window manager and moving/resizing my windows with keyboards shortcuts anyway).

To me it's all about less fingers travel and having the fingers on their home position as often as possible. YMMV.

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Phenix
-p

14 Feb 2016, 00:26

I want to try out Tenkeyless + a separate numpad. Any relatively cheap+nice numpad-ideas?

Looked for the old IBM numpad but hard to find

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b4d_tR1p

15 Feb 2016, 23:49

varmilo tester is a cheap numpad

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c2lknt

20 Feb 2016, 21:16

b4d_tR1p wrote: varmilo tester is a cheap numpad
I heard the PCBs on those were bad?

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in10did

21 Feb 2016, 18:41

Anybody using a one handed chord keyboard like the BAT or Twiddler? BAT has 7 keys and Twiddler has 16 plus a track point. They leave one hand open for the mouse if you like. Here is another called DecaTxt because it has ten keys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlKSmFSwjM

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lootbag

22 Feb 2016, 10:59

60% or bust for me, 75% is pushing it.
I have my Slimblade on the left and mouse on the right.
Hong Kong rent is crazy, I can only afford a tiny studio which results in space for a tiny desk.
Tenkeyless already eats up too much real estate.

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b4d_tR1p

26 Feb 2016, 12:30

c2lknt wrote:
b4d_tR1p wrote: varmilo tester is a cheap numpad
I heard the PCBs on those were bad?

I still have not found problems

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klikkyklik

03 Mar 2016, 17:13

I'm not sure what all this fuss is about not having mouse space with full-sized keyboards. :lol:

Just kidding. All I do is slide it to the left a bit and life is good. I'll never give up my behemoths, for any reason!
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Hypersphere

03 Mar 2016, 17:16

@klikkyklik: Looks like the poor mouse is about to fall off the edge!

__red__

07 Mar 2016, 12:53

Hypersphere wrote:@klikkyklik: Looks like the poor mouse is about to fall off the edge!
Good riddance :-)

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czarek

07 Mar 2016, 13:43

Hmm not that I don't have space for bigger keyboard, but I like to have as little hand movement as possible during work. Doing finger yoga for fn combinations is fine with me :)
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b4d_tR1p

09 Mar 2016, 10:49

wow very nice!

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Chyros

09 Mar 2016, 11:03

czarek wrote: Hmm not that I don't have space for bigger keyboard, but I like to have as little hand movement as possible during work. Doing finger yoga for fn combinations is fine with me :)
I think you should have three fullsize keyboards on that desk Image .

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