What happens when your "White Whale" disappoints?

[hellothere]

I've been pining over the IBM 5576 and P70/75 for around two years, ever since I found Chyros' YouTube channel. I loved the sound. Hearing that it also was a really decent keyboard kinda solidified my desire to get one.

So, I finally got one. It was expensive. It was from overseas. It just needed some cleaning (and I'll probably retr0bright the top case) and two switches, which I already had. It's also PS/2, so plug and play!

It's a nice keyboard. Better than an M or F. I can deal with the Japanese characters. I can get a Hasu converter if I want to do some more advanced key mapping.

But it's not for me. I've got a Topre that I like more. I've got a SteelSeries Apex pro that I like more. I have a brown Alps keyboard that I like more.

I have a couple KBs I'd like to try, but no whales in sight. Counsel, me, Deskthority! What should I do?

[robo]

The answer lies within you.

[Johnbo]

I had almost the exact same experience with mine, FWIW. I definitely like it, it's a very interesting, unique feeling switch and I'm glad it's in my collection for sure. It's just not exactly the "basically a beamspring battleship" I had built it up to be in my head lol. Oh well, certainly a fine board and I will enjoy using it here and there.

I did discover that, as far as I can tell, mine outputs null (0) scancodes for some of the switches though, which kinda sucks. I think it means I'll have to bypass the keyboard's guts entirely and directly map the matrix to a teensy ++ or something. I dunno, like you said it's not the divine transcendence experience I was hoping for so it's not exactly high on my list to do lol. I can at least still kinda use the alpha block to type on here and there if I want.

[Weezer]

I mean if you don't enjoy something then you sell it.

[Yasu0]

1. Sell it for a profit.
2. Buy a vintage scooter.
3. Join scooter gang.
4. Forget all about keyboard hobby.

[Karmel]

1. Get your "white whale"
2. Find out that you don't really like it
3. Take it apart completely
4. Never get around to putting it back together
5. Throw the parts in a closet because you don't know what to do with them and they're making your desk look like a mess
6. Forget about it
7. Come back to find that you have somehow lost or broken some of the parts
8. Denial
9. Anger
10. Depression
11. Forget about it
12. Sell the leftover parts
13. Profit
14. Forget about it

[hellothere]

I did discover that, as far as I can tell, mine outputs null (0) scancodes for some of the switches though, which kinda sucks.

You might have something broken and/or your keyboard isn't set up right in your OS. While I can't use all the keys without the Hasu converter, they do beep at me when I press them in Windows.

1. Sell it for a profit.
2. Buy a vintage scooter.
3. Join scooter gang.
4. Forget all about keyboard hobby.

A yellow Vespa, like in FLCL? I do live in a place where riding one makes some sense. Hey, it's a desert. Rain? What's that? (Although 115 degrees outside is still pretty hot for scooter weather.)

[hellothere]

1. Get your "white whale"
2. Find out that you don't really like it
3. Take it apart completely
4. Never get around to putting it back together
5. Throw the parts in a closet because you don't know what to do with them and they're making your desk look like a mess
6. Forget about it
7. Come back to find that you have somehow lost or broken some of the parts
8. Denial
9. Anger
10. Depression
11. Forget about it
12. Sell the leftover parts
13. Profit
14. Forget about it

Error on line five. Too many keyboard parts in closet.

I definitely will sell. I haven't been able to do any retr0brighting for the past couple of weeks because it's monsoon season and it's been cloudy or rainy.

[Polecat]

The secret to happiness is...

(don't read this if you don't really want to know, as you can't unread it after the fact)

Spoiler:

Lower your expectations to the point they're already met.

(someone once told me this is a Buddhist thing, although I can't confirm that)

[Weezer]

That's kind of defeatist isn't it?

[Karmel]

The secret to happiness is...

(don't read this if you don't really want to know, as you can't unread it after the fact)

Spoiler:

Lower your expectations to the point they're already met.

(someone once told me this is a Buddhist thing, although I can't confirm that)

Indeed. I feel like if I don't lower my expectations, every new switch that I try just doesn't feel as good because I expected it to be much better than it actually was.

[ddrfraser1]

Also underwhelmed by those plate springs

[Polecat]

That's kind of defeatist isn't it?

Defeatist to me would be giving up everything and sitting and waiting for the giant meteor to arrive and do its thing. I think there's a kind of serenity that comes with age, which I'm just now starting to feel. For instance, when I'm driving on the freeway and traffic starts to slow down and suddenly fifty idiots desperately swerve across multiple lanes trying to get to the exit. Yes, they're all running the same GPS ap, and it just told them they'd save 15 seconds by going a different way. Life should not be a contest about who gets there first. That pathological need to save 15 seconds is something I just don't feel (plus I don't own a smartphone), and it's actually embarrassing to me to be of the same species as anyone who would be driven like that. I think the Buddhist thing is something like, "Desire is the cause of all unhappiness", but there's undoubtedly a lot more to it than that.

Of course all that is easy for me to say, having found my white whale (industrial gray K104) and *not* being disappointed by it. But my original white whale, thirty-some years ago, was a Northgate 102, and that one eluded me for quite some time. I finally found one, well, actually fourteen Northgates now in total, but they've never been my driver for very long for some reason. So I guess I'm just as fallible as everyone else after all. Sorry for the rant, now where's that damn meteor?

[NeK]

That's kind of defeatist isn't it?

Defeatist to me would be giving up everything and sitting and waiting for the giant meteor to arrive and do its thing. I think there's a kind of serenity that comes with age, which I'm just now starting to feel. For instance, when I'm driving on the freeway and traffic starts to slow down and suddenly fifty idiots desperately swerve across multiple lanes trying to get to the exit. Yes, they're all running the same GPS ap, and it just told them they'd save 15 seconds by going a different way. Life should not be a contest about who gets there first. That pathological need to save 15 seconds is something I just don't feel (plus I don't own a smartphone), and it's actually embarrassing to me to be of the same species as anyone who would be driven like that. I think the Buddhist thing is something like, "Desire is the cause of all unhappiness", but there's undoubtedly a lot more to it than that.

Of course all that is easy for me to say, having found my white whale (industrial gray K104) and *not* being disappointed by it. But my original white whale, thirty-some years ago, was a Northgate 102, and that one eluded me for quite some time. I finally found one, well, actually fourteen Northgates now in total, but they've never been my driver for very long for some reason. So I guess I'm just as fallible as everyone else after all. Sorry for the rant, now where's that damn meteor?

Industrial gray K104, you mean Monterey K104 in gray? You really like K104 more than all your hundreds of boards? Any pics of that?

[Polecat]

Industrial gray K104, you mean Monterey K104 in gray? You really like K104 more than all your hundreds of boards? Any pics of that?

Well, "hundreds" is an exaggeration, but yes, the K104 is my favorite at the moment. Here's a recent photo:

viewtopic.php?p=486795#p486795

I've swapped a different K104 PC board into the gray case since then. I had a beige K104 with doubleshot caps and earlier white Alps switches, which are lighter and feel and sound like blues, so that's what I'm typing on now. The PC board that came in the gray case probably also has the good switches, but it needs to be taken apart and cleaned properly.

[Weezer]

That's kind of defeatist isn't it?

I think the Buddhist thing is something like, "Desire is the cause of all unhappiness", but there's undoubtedly a lot more to it than that.

Yeah I think saying that lowering expectations until they are already met is a bit of an oversimplification of Buddhism. The Buddhist belief is that attachment to worldly possessions/desires and the expectation that we will attain happiness from the impermanence of the physical world are the roots of our ultimate unhappiness. The goal of Buddhist teachings is to be freed from Saṃsāra, or cyclical rebirth, caused by us accruing Karma, which is gained partially through us lusting for and clinging to physical objects. So with that in light I believe the Buddhist position would be an understanding that no keyboard is going to bring satisfaction and that they should be given up in favor of pursuing good deeds and earning positive merit with the universe.

Lowering expectations until they're already met can be extrapolated to some unfortunate real world results as well. If I have no expectation to make a living wage, why would I pursue a better job, or fight for more worker's rights? If I don't have an expectation that in the USA I should or could have accessible and free healthcare at the point of service why would I fight to make that happen?

Desire is also the impetus for improvement. Some say that complacency is the enemy of living a fulfilled life. This is one of the catch-22s of Buddhism in my opinion. One of the goals is to let go of desire, but to make that effort, you must still retain a desire to let desire go.

Of course I definitely would agree there is a balance to maintain. People in this day and age expect to never be inconvenienced in any way and view other people as inconveniences. Idiots trying to save 30 seconds on the highway is an excellent example of that. Buddhists call this Vibhava-taṇhā, which means a craving to not experience unpleasant situations that come with life.

I guess to take that full circle back to keyboards, I think the most practical path forward is to analyze why you didn't like the keyboard and then adjust your search, selling the one you don't like to recoup the money. In reanalyzing why you didn't like the white whale perhaps you may come to the realization that the hunt for a keyboard that is 5% better isn't worth the energy put into the search?

[Polecat]

Yeah I think saying that lowering expectations until they are already met is a bit of an oversimplification of Buddhism. The Buddhist belief is that attachment to worldly possessions/desires and the expectation that we will attain happiness from the impermanence of the physical world are the roots of our ultimate unhappiness. The goal of Buddhist teachings is to be freed from Saṃsāra, or cyclical rebirth, caused by us accruing Karma, which is gained partially through us lusting for and clinging to physical objects. So with that in light I believe the Buddhist position would be an understanding that no keyboard is going to bring satisfaction and that they should be given up in favor of pursuing good deeds and earning positive merit with the universe.

Lowering expectations until they're already met can be extrapolated to some unfortunate real world results as well. If I have no expectation to make a living wage, why would I pursue a better job, or fight for more worker's rights? If I don't have an expectation that in the USA I should or could have accessible and free healthcare at the point of service why would I fight to make that happen?

Desire is also the impetus for improvement. Some say that complacency is the enemy of living a fulfilled life. This is one of the catch-22s of Buddhism in my opinion. One of the goals is to let go of desire, but to make that effort, you must still retain a desire to let desire go.

Of course I definitely would agree there is a balance to maintain. People in this day and age expect to never be inconvenienced in any way and view other people as inconveniences. Idiots trying to save 30 seconds on the highway is an excellent example of that. Buddhists call this Vibhava-taṇhā, which means a craving to not experience unpleasant situations that come with life.

I guess to take that full circle back to keyboards, I think the most practical path forward is to analyze why you didn't like the keyboard and then adjust your search, selling the one you don't like to recoup the money. In reanalyzing why you didn't like the white whale perhaps you may come to the realization that the hunt for a keyboard that is 5% better isn't worth the energy put into the search?

Thank you, that's a better explanation than, uh, I could have desired. There's probably no resolving the contradictions you describe without destroying the things so many of us think are important in modern life. Especially when everyone is so busy having opinions about everything that they don't bother listening to or valuing anyone else's. So we're right back to the giant meteor again. In the mean time I'm not ashamed to say I'm enjoying my "too expensive" Monterey keyboard that it took me 30 years to find.

[Weezer]

Thank you, that's a better explanation than, uh, I could have desired.

I appreciate the double meaning

Especially when everyone is so busy having opinions about everything that they don't bother listening to or valuing anyone else's.

I hope that this is not a snipe at my comments. They come from a good natured place. I enjoy having dialogues about life philosophy

[Polecat]

Thank you, that's a better explanation than, uh, I could have desired.

I appreciate the double entendre

Especially when everyone is so busy having opinions about everything that they don't bother listening to or valuing anyone else's.

I hope that this is not a snipe at my comments. They come from a good natured place. I enjoy having dialogues about life philosophy

Absolutely not, my thanks are quite sincere and I very much appreciate your explanations of the Buddhist concepts.

[webwit]

The Answer To The Question

[hellothere]

Also underwhelmed by those plate springs

It's not that I'm really underwhelmed because it's a bad keyboard, it's just ... not the ultimate KB for me. As I wrote, I think it's better than a Model F or Model M. Maybe if I didn't know about Hall Effect or Topre switches, I'd consider it the best thing since sliced bread.

In reanalyzing why you didn't like the white whale perhaps you may come to the realization that the hunt for a keyboard that is 5% better isn't worth the energy put into the search?

Thus this thread . Well, sorta.

I don't really want a keyboard that's only 5% better than the 60ish ones I currently have. I want it to be much better.

The problem I have is that I can compare KB X to KB Y, but if I'm asked what I want in a KB, I'd say good tactility and medium weighting ... which is not what the Apex Pro has, but I still like it. I'm not 100% sure what that means in my search to find a new "white whale."

[NeK]

I guess to take that full circle back to keyboards, I think the most practical path forward is to analyze why you didn't like the keyboard and then adjust your search, selling the one you don't like to recoup the money. In reanalyzing why you didn't like the white whale perhaps you may come to the realization that the hunt for a keyboard that is 5% better isn't worth the energy put into the search?

Or one can just point out the obvious: it is the journey, not the destination.

And at this case it is true as it gets. The destination was unsatisfying, but I am sure he did enjoyed pursuing a goal.

Hellothere: Just sell it, I say and find something else to pursue. It definitely has surved it's purpose to you. Win - win situation.

[NeK]

Industrial gray K104, you mean Monterey K104 in gray? You really like K104 more than all your hundreds of boards? Any pics of that?

Well, "hundreds" is an exaggeration, but yes, the K104 is my favorite at the moment. Here's a recent photo:

viewtopic.php?p=486795#p486795

I've swapped a different K104 PC board into the gray case since then. I had a beige K104 with doubleshot caps and earlier white Alps switches, which are lighter and feel and sound like blues, so that's what I'm typing on now. The PC board that came in the gray case probably also has the good switches, but it needs to be taken apart and cleaned properly.

I like best the K102 to be honest, it is heavier and it has the best haul giving out such a full and bass click clack. I have two of them, one with whites (not early ones) and one with blue (what I am restoring and experiment on for over a year now). The white one I use daily at work, it is incredible and delicious. And I am a furious coder typing and navigating non stop for hours on end. It works like a charm, without any deterioration at all until now.

I like the K104 too, but it is more light and it feels like the "cheaper" model, and doesn't sound nearly as good.

[Polecat]

I like best the K102 to be honest, it is heavier and it has the best haul giving out such a full and bass click clack. I have two of them, one with whites (not early ones) and one with blue (what I am restoring and experiment on for over a year now). The white one I use daily at work, it is incredible and delicious. And I am a furious coder typing and navigating non stop for hours on end. It works like a charm, without any deterioration at all until now.

I like the K104 too, but it is more light and it feels like the "cheaper" model, and doesn't sound nearly as good.

I have the same set of K102s, blue and white:

viewtopic.php?p=445170#p445170

Those use the same PC board and plate as the early K104, so any difference is strictly due to the case. I've had the blue Alps K102 for 30 years or so, and I apparently found it too loud and resonant when I got it, because when I opened it up a few years back I found a piece of closed cell foam between the PC board and bottom cover that I had installed decades before.

My previous comment about having opinions was in regard to how social media has changed modern life and the need for instant opinion and intolerance it has created, nothing to do with anything that had been said.

edited for typo(s)

[shine]

The secret to happiness is...

(don't read this if you don't really want to know, as you can't unread it after the fact)

Spoiler:

Lower your expectations to the point they're already met.

(someone once told me this is a Buddhist thing, although I can't confirm that)

+1

[NeK]

My White Whale was the Acer KB102A which I was lucky enough and got it. It didn't dissapointed me, in fact it was even better than I thought. However I prefer the Monterey's for daily driver, because they are simply not that rare and not that expensive and honestly, they may not be better than the acer, or as good, but they are right up there in the same leauge with it. I am serious.

If you take care of your monterey, it gives you the best keyboard experience. I don't see any reason to use any other keyboard in that case.

[NeK]

Also underwhelmed by those plate springs

It's not that I'm really underwhelmed because it's a bad keyboard, it's just ... not the ultimate KB for me. As I wrote, I think it's better than a Model F or Model M. Maybe if I didn't know about Hall Effect or Topre switches, I'd consider it the best thing since sliced bread.

In reanalyzing why you didn't like the white whale perhaps you may come to the realization that the hunt for a keyboard that is 5% better isn't worth the energy put into the search?

Thus this thread . Well, sorta.

I don't really want a keyboard that's only 5% better than the 60ish ones I currently have. I want it to be much better.

The problem I have is that I can compare KB X to KB Y, but if I'm asked what I want in a KB, I'd say good tactility and medium weighting ... which is not what the Apex Pro has, but I still like it. I'm not 100% sure what that means in my search to find a new "white whale."

Now you got me interested in topre! Any tips on where I can find one? Which one do you recommend?

[wobbled]

For Topre play it safe with a standard ANSI layout Realforce keyboard if you're coming from standard layout boards.
If you're up for learning a slightly different layout - and an excellent layout at that, go grab yourself any HHKB.
If you decide you like it, start modding it and swapping out domes for heavier or lighter counterparts, lube up your sliders, add some foam in the case and some rubber legs on the underside.
Topre boards are a lot of fun to mod and always a pleasure to type on.
Always keep an eye on ebay, I've seen HHKBs listed for under £90 which was unheard of 2 years ago

[NeK]

For Topre play it safe with a standard ANSI layout Realforce keyboard if you're coming from standard layout boards.
If you're up for learning a slightly different layout - and an excellent layout at that, go grab yourself any HHKB.
If you decide you like it, start modding it and swapping out domes for heavier or lighter counterparts, lube up your sliders, add some foam in the case and some rubber legs on the underside.
Topre boards are a lot of fun to mod and always a pleasure to type on.
Always keep an eye on ebay, I've seen HHKBs listed for under £90 which was unheard of 2 years ago

I don't care much about HKKB layout. I like full layouts and ISO not ANSI (that big ass enter is a must for me). Thanks for the info

[hellothere]

My current thread on Topre, which has a lot of good information on their keyboards. A lot of folks have put some really great comments in that thread. Note the key weightings (and prices) for different Topre brands.

In the US, mechanicalkeyboards.com, Amazon, and others sell Topre. I think the "worldwide" store is https://fujitsuscannerstore.com/keyboards.

=========

I have two computers, so I have two daily drivers. One is my Topre RealForce. The other is an OmniKey Plus with (non original) blue Alps. This second computer, a Windows 10 box, I use primarily for testing keyboards before I sell them. So, PM me if you want a restored OmniKey .

========

There are two switches I'd like to try. One's an Omron B3GS. I've been searching for that for awhile and the ones I've seen are either in boards that are trashed or they're listed here right after I've blown my KB budget for the week/month. The other is amber Alps. However, the #1 source of these is a particular model Apple IIc and I've not found two cheap enough. However, I'd call these switches in between a "beige whale" and "white whale": I'm actively looking for them ... when I remember to.