Best switches from an ergonomics standpoint?

[NewGuy]

Earlier this year, I picked up a Logitech K750 because Ripster was going on about how good Logitech's chiclet keys were, and because it made switching between desktops & notebooks a lot easier, but after six months of use, I'm now showing RSI-related problems that I've never experienced before (though I would attribute a lot of that to the Anywhere MX mouse I bought at the same time) and frankly I just don't like the keyboard much because it's very noisy to type on as it's so low on the desk, the travel on the keys is so shallow, and they require more force than they ought to.

I'm still put off by the fact that there aren't any good wireless options for mechanical keyboards, but there do now at least seem to be a few decent options for backlit mechanical keyboards without blue LEDs or stupid "gamer" fonts printed on the keys.

But what I'm wondering though, is which keyswitch you would say is best from an ergonomics standpoint to battle RSI?

Personally I can't stand MX Blues due to the tactile bump, because I often found the keys "sticking" on it if I was trying to type lightly rather than bottoming out. I can't imagine the MX Browns would be any different, just quieter.

So would MX Reds be better because they're a very light linear switch? My concern there is that they might be so light that you are always bottoming out and putting undue force on your fingers, or possibly your wrists from trying to "hover" your fingers over the keyboard, rather than being able to rest them on the keyboard gently.

With MX Black switches, it seems like you would be exerting more force with every keypress, but it seems like it would be easier to not bottom out with them each time. I don't know if this would be better or worse overall, if you're typing all day. (note: I also plan on using it for gaming)

And what about topre switches? With them being a fancy rubber dome that doesn't require you to bottom out the key for it to register, would they maybe be more comfortable? It's my understanding that the tactile bump with them is at the very top of the press and not the middle, so it wouldn't result in keys getting stuck down while typing as I've experienced with MX Blues. (caused by me not lifting my finger enough for it to go past the bump)


I know there are a lot of people here that have tried all sorts of different keyboards here, so I was wondering if it's something they had noticed when typing on them for long periods of time?


I had bought an MX Red Poker in the first group buy here, but it was never shipped to me, and I haven't been able to find anything using MX Reds being sold somewhere that I can try them out, so I don't really have any experience with how light that switch is.

What I can say, is that I've just gone back to my old Razer DeathAdder mouse after using the Logitech Anywhere MX, and having the "hair-trigger" switch on the buttons is far more comfortable for me, and puts significantly less strain on my index finger, which is why I'm leaning towards MX Reds again.

[off]

Seeing how you're considering switches that have the tactility at the top, like rubber domes do, perhaps spend the fiver to test an AT101/2 at your local recycler/secondhandstore... They are not really light, and I can't speak to their RSI mitigation, but for the price; worth a shot.

Ripster is quite the salesperson indeed.

[TexasFlood]

I don't know where to try reds out, I bought a Rosewill RK-9000RE when they went on sale recently at Newegg so I could try it out. I like it but it was weird at first, I wanted a quiet keyboard and the reds are quiet for a mechanical, I put dental bands on mine to quiet the thack a bit and am happy with it. The activation point is same as browns I think but you don't have to overcome the force of the tactile bump. You might also want to bone up on the upcoming new Matias switch and see if that might work for you.

[off]

On second thought, impure since the board I used as reference is absolutely fubar, I'd say skip the Black Alps. Perhaps an AEKII would do though, being And the Cream Alps too.
Honestly, do try browns, something cheap like an MX11800 to get a feel for the switches (and find another way to test reds), and then go straight for a Kinesis. OR go the hardcore way and dive in deep, for the DataHand.

edit: regarding the sticking, I know what you mean, and here's where an MX11800 proves itself, these switches are used, so it's a lot less than on the ones I've just received.
And a li'll more info, the Black Alps I've just tried a sec ago (most of them modded, and forgot which and how), had a relatively too high bump to break through, these browns are way easier on the hands.
Gimme a sec to open up a brown and blue, to compare how they 'hang', esp when going back up (blues are pretty nasty in that regard, ergoclears way worse though). Hm, on brand new ones, pretty much a wash. Though blues have that ergoclear tendency to not reliably come back up at the same point/time.

[TexasFlood]

And of course I love thinkpad keyboards, even the below pictured Lenovo 55Y9003.
It has a bad review at geekhack but I still love its scissory goodness.

[didja]

I have arthritis or some other crap they can't figure out (House says it's not lupus!) but it has the same result on my hands and wrists... and I have had the best luck with Cherry Brown MX and Topre variable. I use these two about 90% of the time and rotate in my favorite ALPS and buckling springs for the other 10% to keep things fun. That has worked well with me. A good wrist rest also helped, though I know I shouldn't rest my wrists while typing.

[TexasFlood]

didja, have you tried mx reds? Just curious how you liked them and how relatively comfortable they were for you if so.

[Keymonger]

I think the sticking you're describing with MX Blues is the reset point, which isn't close (enough) to the activation point. MX Brown has both points closer, so this won't happen.

Try MX Brown. They have a different feel because of the reset point. Personally, MX Blues might be my favorite if it weren't for the reset point.

[Findecanor]

I think that vintage MX blue are smoother, and not as "sticky". I have not typed that much on modern blues, though. I have only vintage blues at home and I mod them with orthodontic bands to get a soft landing.
I find them to be less tiring than MX browns or Topre.

Anyway.. do evaluate your typing posture. Not just your back, but also how your wrist is. I have noticed that I can get pains from just holding my left hand over a keyboard for too long.

[didja]

didja, have you tried mx reds? Just curious how you liked them and how relatively comfortable they were for you if so.

I'm really looking forward to trying reds but don't want to buy a cheap board just for the sake of trying switches. I'll probably get a Race because the layout looks interesting, but I disagree with their $150 price for "limited edition" to get it in white when it's the same board they're selling for $100. All of these boards are limited edition anyway with how fast models come and go. If I don't do the race I'll probably get another Filco TKL but with Reds instead of browns this time, or maybe a Leo from Elite.

I think that vintage MX blue are smoother, and not as "sticky". I have not typed that much on modern blues, though. I have only vintage blues at home and I mod them with orthodontic bands to get a soft landing.
I find them to be less tiring than MX browns or Topre.

I love the blues in my Dolch PAC-60 boards and attributed much of it to the PCB mount vs plate but it definitively could be the switches making a lot of the difference.

[TexasFlood]

didja, have you tried mx reds? Just curious how you liked them and how relatively comfortable they were for you if so.

I'm really looking forward to trying reds but don't want to buy a cheap board just for the sake of trying switches.

That's what I snagged the RK-9000RE for at $64. Figured I could probably get most or all of my money back if I didn't like it but so far I -think- that I like it. I'm really not sure yet, it's so different that what I'm used to. Not sure if I really like it or just don't hate it and trying to rationalize the buy and convince myself that I do, Not sure that makes sense, hah.

[ripster]

Cherry Reds = Cloud Of Boobs.

Spoiler:

[captain]

I am still torn between Cherry MX Reds and Blues. Reds are definitely better for FPS gaming, and they are fine for general typing, but for really blazing through some speed typing I have to stick with the Blues. That tactile and audible feedback really works, at least with me. I'm probably 10wpm faster on Blues.

I'm pretty sure Blues and Reds use the same springs, but the Reds feel a hair heavier to me, so for RSI I'd either go with Blues, or one of those crazy light keyboards. I think Topre has a 35g, and the hall effect switches can be much lighter than that, plus the Data Hand removes most of the motion, and what it requires is more ergonomic.

[off]

To get back to the OP:
"I'm now showing RSI-related problems that I've never experienced before"
Is not something that a solution should be sought for in buying a new keyboard.
Fix posture, move around more, see a doc, whatever; if the problem would be caused by 'crappy rubber dome or scissor board' then the world would have 90% of the people noticing RSI.

[NewGuy]

First of all, thank you for the replies everyone.

While some of you have suggested that I try the MX Browns, I don't think I want any kind of tactile bump, which rules out any Topre keyboards as well. It just seems like an unnecessary force that is more likely to make you bottom out the keys while typing.

Initially, I was really just thinking of trying to get one of the newer boards like a Ducky Shine or KBT Pure, simply because the switches would be a lot kinder on my fingers, but now I'm wondering if I should be looking into something that's genuinely ergonomic.

I've spent a bit of time looking around, but I'm not sure they're for me though. While I'm now used to the split keyboard on my iPad rather than the full one, it's not exactly the same as typing on a real keyboard. (I am not a "proper" touch typist, so a split layout would need some adjustment)

The Kinesis Ergo seems to have a lot of good things about its design, but I've read that people have problems with using function keys. For example, Alt + Tab are a large stretch.

I was seriously considering the DataHand, but apparently they're no longer being made or up for sale, despite them being listed as such on the website.

Other than that, I'm not sure what else to be looking at. Most of the split keyboard designs still use staggered keys, which seems like a bad idea if you're going for an "ergonomic" layout.

Anyway.. do evaluate your typing posture. Not just your back, but also how your wrist is. I have noticed that I can get pains from just holding my left hand over a keyboard for too long.

I've definitely been looking into that, and I think the thinness of this keyboard only being 7mm tall has made me develop a few bad habits such as resting my wrists on the table when typing at times.

Is not something that a solution should be sought for in buying a new keyboard.
Fix posture, move around more, see a doc, whatever; if the problem would be caused by 'crappy rubber dome or scissor board' then the world would have 90% of the people noticing RSI.

Yes, you are correct that there are clearly more issues at hand here, which I am taking steps to address, but I'd like to at least know what my best options are when replacing this keyboard. Whether it's the cause or not, I simply don't like the amount of force required when using it, and am definitely getting pains in the joints of my fingers that I did not have with my previous keyboard. (and my wrists/shoulder which is more to do with posture etc.) Because it's so thin, and there's so little travel, I feel like I may as well be banging my fingers on the top of the desk all day.

[Findecanor]

The Kinesis Ergo seems to have a lot of good things about its design, but I've read that people have problems with using function keys. For example, Alt + Tab are a large stretch.

I have one on my desk, and that is my biggest gripe with it. On the other hand ... it is completely remap-able.

[off]

Just try a board with Browns, I'm serious; especially considering the price they can go for.
There is the choice of either: tactility to help you feel when to stop pre-bottom-out, or linearity to not need the extra power to overcome the tactility, but neither having any indicator to stop pre-crash; hence my suggestion, try (and try for a month or so at least) before judging; you might hate browns, you might hate reds.
You might want to add your country of residence to your profile, so you could perhaps borrow a board with reds/browns/something from someone nearby.

On staggering, never have used a board that had either a 'reverse stagger', or a matrix layout, or a 'staggered collumn' layout; but do mirror your thoughts on that; there is the ErgoDox coming up, but cheap it will not be.

You say you're not a proper touch typist, care to elaborate? It is quite an important facet I'd say, no longer focussing on finding a certain key enables you to focus on lightness of touch and naturalness of posture&motion.

Also, the kinesis is supposedly programmable, and there have been cases where people just added in new switches.
GL.
*edit, ninja'd on the Kinesis.

[Maarten]

Get three completely different boards, swap between em every week. Im not a doctor, but the 'r' in RSI stands for repetitive right? So whatever type of board and/or switch you choose can cause this (or keep it up) simply because you keep doing the same motion over and over again. Three different boards with completely different layouts and switches might in fact be best and heck you'd have a real excuses why you have three keyboards so your colleagues wont think you're crazy!!

[NewGuy]

Just try a board with Browns, I'm serious; especially considering the price they can go for.

Couldn't hurt, I suppose.

You say you're not a proper touch typist, care to elaborate? It is quite an important facet I'd say, no longer focussing on finding a certain key enables you to focus on lightness of touch and naturalness of posture&motion.

I don't need to look at the keyboard when typing, I can type over 100 WPM, and I'm typing with all my fingers... but my hands stray from the home keys as I type certain letters or characters. (and I couldn't even tell you which, as it's just what comes naturally to me)


I've tried to correct this, but without something physically stopping it (like a split keyboard) I can't see myself changing. That's what happens when you grow up in front of a computer, but never had typing lessons I suppose. What I will say though, is that when trying to touch-type properly, I do find that I'm actually stretching my fingers or twisting my wrists more than the way I normally type, so maybe it's not necessarily a terrible thing.

Get three completely different boards, swap between em every week. Im not a doctor, but the 'r' in RSI stands for repetitive right? So whatever type of board and/or switch you choose can cause this (or keep it up) simply because you keep doing the same motion over and over again. Three different boards with completely different layouts and switches might in fact be best and heck you'd have a real excuses why you have three keyboards so your colleagues wont think you're crazy!!

That's actually not a bad idea...

[Peter]

That's what happens when you grow up in front of a computer, but never had typing lessons I suppose

It's NEVER to late to take typing-lessons and improve your WPM !
They used to teach it in school, nowadays it seems like pole-dancing classes are more popular than typing-class !
There are even FREE computer-programs available, aimed at teaching you proper typing-skills !!

My dad forced me to learn proper typing, on a mechanical typewriter, and set a WPM-goal that I had to reach
before he allowed me to use his Selectric ..
I didn't like him for it at the time, but now I understand what a favour he actually did me