Alps Appreciation

[Lynx_Carpathica]

So, I can finally join the alps praising club. Rememer that NTC KB-6251EA? I've restored it. And it come out EXTREMELY WELL! Without the need for lubing. Finally I have a nice alps board. Though the build quality sucks (all padprinted, and plastic mount), the switches feel Extremely tactile, almost brand new. No binding at all, but the B, I and 1 on the numberline is flaky. They are first gen. white alps, with the logo on the bottom only.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What type of switchplate do they use? This is 1989, I assume.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

What type of switchplate do they use? This is 1989, I assume.

I could not tell the difference, How long exactly the long switchplate is?

EDIT: I think theese are short.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The short ones sit on a pair of posts, since the inside space isn't itself smaller.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

What exactly makes Blue Alps feel better than White Alps? I don't think that a switch-plate can change that much in terms of feel, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've noticed a significant difference between two of my White Alps keyboards. One of them is from ~1989, and the other one is probably from 1992/1993. The 1989 keyboard's White Alps feel much different and they definitely used dry lubricant at some point because there is grey residue on the slider. However, the newer one has a bit more of a rough key-feel and the dry lubricant is not present (this is probably when they switched to POM for the sliders, right?). I have also noticed that there is a different spring in the older one, which definitely resembles the type of spring used in Blue Alps. It looks like it has a gold-tone opposed to the silver-tone spring in the newer White Alps.

So, what I'm trying to ask is, are the very early White Alps comparable to Blue Alps? Here's the difference between my older and newer White Alps sliders/springs:

Hahh! As I suspected... So it was really dry lubricant... It was suspiciously sticky, and I've found some white stuff around the edges of the slider, confirming this theory.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

White stuff? The alleged lubricant is dark grey.

[Chyros]

White stuff? The alleged lubricant is dark grey.

Yeah, that's what I've heard before as well, but I'm not certain it's actually that.

[Menuhin]

Is it just me?
I can see some dark grey residue at the bottom of the Old white slider on the above photo.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Is it just me?
I can see some dark grey residue at the bottom of the Old white slider on the above photo.

There was on mine too. But I wiped it off, I thought it was just contaminant.
and mine has matte springs.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

White stuff? The alleged lubricant is dark grey.

Yeah, that's what I've heard before as well, but I'm not certain it's actually that.

I've been suspicious for a while. This is the original page where dry lubricant is mentioned, but I can't actually see anything:

acer kb101a

画像のSAMPLEではハッキリしませんが乾式潤滑剤が塗られており、広い壁面側よりケースのガイドと接する部分により顕著に認められます。

This translates approximately to, "Although it is not clear in the image SAMPLE, dry lubricant is painted, and it is noticeable by the part which comes into contact with the case guide from the wide wall side."

On the other hand, the dark streaks found in older Alps switches also show up in [wiki]Aristotle Yellow[/wiki] and [wiki]Dai-Ichi CL-1145 Green[/wiki].

So why do second generation Alps switches never show this phenomenon? If it's not lubricant but instead some kind of dirt, but early white Alps have it, then either a) it's not specific to the newer slider plastic, or b) early white Alps is still using the older plastic, without the blue pigment.

A possible explanation is that the black substance is dirt trapped in the lubricant at the point of greatest pressure (since Sandy suggests it's on the side of the slider, but we've never seen the dark grey marks there that I know of). Does this then suggest that CL-1145 and Aristotle Yellow are lubricated? (Aristotle Yellow is horribly rough.)

[Chyros]

White stuff? The alleged lubricant is dark grey.

Yeah, that's what I've heard before as well, but I'm not certain it's actually that.

I've been suspicious for a while. This is the original page where dry lubricant is mentioned, but I can't actually see anything:

acer kb101a

画像のSAMPLEではハッキリしませんが乾式潤滑剤が塗られており、広い壁面側よりケースのガイドと接する部分により顕著に認められます。

This translates approximately to, "Although it is not clear in the image SAMPLE, dry lubricant is painted, and it is noticeable by the part which comes into contact with the case guide from the wide wall side."

On the other hand, the dark streaks found in older Alps switches also show up in [wiki]Aristotle Yellow[/wiki] and [wiki]Dai-Ichi CL-1145 Green[/wiki].

So why do second generation Alps switches never show this phenomenon? If it's not lubricant but instead some kind of dirt, but early white Alps have it, then either a) it's not specific to the newer slider plastic, or b) early white Alps is still using the older plastic, without the blue pigment.

A possible explanation is that the black substance is dirt trapped in the lubricant at the point of greatest pressure (since Sandy suggests it's on the side of the slider, but we've never seen the dark grey marks there that I know of). Does this then suggest that CL-1145 and Aristotle Yellow are lubricated? (Aristotle Yellow is horribly rough.)

I've always considered the white stuff to be the lubricant. It's evenly coated on the slider, and where the leaves have been in contact with it, streaks are noticeable. It makes much more sense to me that that is the lubricant, especially as that Alps guy mentioned the lubricant was "JIS spec, probably silicone based" which means you'd expect a translucent lube, not a black one. The residue is also absent on newer Alps switches, although I've actually found it on some SKCM blacks as well. The even coating of this material, its disappearance in most switches over time, and its presence on my NOS keyboards all strongly suggest to me that is the actual lubricant. Or maybe it's both!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

"Always considered"? It's news to me — is this some sort of dirty secret, or did I just miss all the memos? So far as I'm aware, everyone else also thinks the dark grey marks are the lubricant — have you all been saying otherwise before now?

I've never found any such substance on any switches I've had, although all my NOS parts have been second or third generation (that includes SKCC: mine appear to all be later issue; not sure about GI S950 though as they're too rare to get an idea of history of the design changes that I've observed).

Is it physically possible to photograph this substance? Sandy tried, but I don't think his photography setup was adequate — you'd need excellent macro capability and lighting to capture the texture.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Is it physically possible to photograph this substance? Sandy tried, but I don't think his photography setup was adequate — you'd need excellent macro capability and lighting to capture the texture.

I wiped it off, and my photo machine won't capture it, not enough dynamic range (HDR is req'd imo, Whire and whiter stuff)

[Hypersphere]

"Always considered"? It's news to me — is this some sort of dirty secret, or did I just miss all the memos? So far as I'm aware, everyone else also thinks the dark grey marks are the lubricant — have you all been saying otherwise before now?

I've never found any such substance on any switches I've had, although all my NOS parts have been second or third generation (that includes SKCC: mine appear to all be later issue; not sure about GI S950 though as they're too rare to get an idea of history of the design changes that I've observed).

Is it physically possible to photograph this substance? Sandy tried, but I don't think his photography setup was adequate — you'd need excellent macro capability and lighting to capture the texture.

Yes, dark gray or black is what I have seen on my blue Alps sliders. I've also seen it on orange Alps sliders. The color is what made me think of molybdenum disulfide or tungsten disulfide, which are well known dry lubricants that are black in color.

I am no longer directly running a "wet lab". Currently, all my own chemistry work is computational, but I still get some lab work done through collaborations. When I get past a number of deadlines, I will contact some chemistry contacts on campus to see about getting the material analyzed. No guarantees, but I will give it a try.

XMIT has also expressed interest in this.

[Chyros]

"Always considered"? It's news to me — is this some sort of dirty secret, or did I just miss all the memos? So far as I'm aware, everyone else also thinks the dark grey marks are the lubricant — have you all been saying otherwise before now?

I've never found any such substance on any switches I've had, although all my NOS parts have been second or third generation (that includes SKCC: mine appear to all be later issue; not sure about GI S950 though as they're too rare to get an idea of history of the design changes that I've observed).

Is it physically possible to photograph this substance? Sandy tried, but I don't think his photography setup was adequate — you'd need excellent macro capability and lighting to capture the texture.

I have nothing remotely good enough to show the whole texture, but I'll see if I can get a shot of it somehow.

And yes, I've ALWAYS considered the white stuff to be the lubricant - originally it didn't even cross my mind that it could also be the black stuff. But as In wasn't sure, and it didn't really matter in the discussions, I didn't raise the point. But now I'm getting more and more certain that the white stuff is a lubricant, instead of or in addition to the black stuff. The black stuff may even be cause by long-term contact with the white lubricant or something.

[Hypersphere]

Question about the apparent "weight" of SKCM blue vs. pine white Alps. The forces given in the DT wiki are 70 cN for blue and 68.6 cN for white. So, these numbers are about the same. Yet the subjective "weight" that I experience when typing on blues is that they feel lighter than typing on whites. Apart from the color of the sliders, the components look very similar: springs, sliders, top housings, click leaves. So which component(s) is/are creating the sensation of blues feeling lighter than whites? (Please don't tell me it is the dry lubricant, which might be white or black!).

[Chyros]

Question about the apparent "weight" of SKCM blue vs. pine white Alps. The forces given in the DT wiki are 70 cN for blue and 68.6 cN for white. So, these numbers are about the same. Yet the subjective "weight" that I experience when typing on blues is that they feel lighter than typing on whites. Apart from the color of the sliders, the components look very similar: springs, sliders, top housings, click leaves. So which component(s) is/are creating the sensation of blues feeling lighter than whites? (Please don't tell me it is the dry lubricant, which might be white or black!).

The click leaves in blue Alps were bent using a different type of procedure, it seems. Matias updated their components in a similar fashion, using bend curves rather than straight bends, on their click switches. Whatever the reason, if you compare the two click leaves, those on blue Alps have a more gradual curve rather than the sharper bend on white Alps. As the click leaf is the principal component responsible for the tactile sensation, it would make sense that it's this chance that causes the difference in feel. It would also explain the slightly lighter keyfeel - although the one usually quotes is within tolerance of the manufacturing equipment. The feeling of clunkiness does translate to a fairly obvious increase in mechanical work, however - again, this is a good example of work rather than peak force being responsible for the perceived "weight" of a keyswitch.

[Mattr567]

Couldn't Matias just recreate the SKCM Blue tactile leaf? What else besides the switchplate is different then genuine Alps? The spring? Would that even make a difference besides weight?

[Delirious]

Couldn't Matias just recreate the SKCM Blue tactile leaf? What else besides the switchplate is different then genuine Alps? The spring? Would that even make a difference besides weight?

Because god forbids Matias to turn any idea into actual product in less than 2 years.

It irks me to no end that more than 2 years later and we still have not seen any pbt keycaps from them. And yet within that same time frame JTK produced 2 keycap sets from their own toolings, then Matt3o's Topre spacebar. Even Jchan has more success than Matias with the current Topre modifiers.

And then there's the so call innovative 60% pcb, but not programmable. With just half of the time they have, skullydazed perfected his clueboard with 2 versions.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Question about the apparent "weight" of SKCM blue vs. pine white Alps. The forces given in the DT wiki are 70 cN for blue and 68.6 cN for white. So, these numbers are about the same. Yet the subjective "weight" that I experience when typing on blues is that they feel lighter than typing on whites. Apart from the color of the sliders, the components look very similar: springs, sliders, top housings, click leaves. So which component(s) is/are creating the sensation of blues feeling lighter than whites? (Please don't tell me it is the dry lubricant, which might be white or black!).

The click leaves in blue Alps were bent using a different type of procedure, it seems. Matias updated their components in a similar fashion, using bend curves rather than straight bends, on their click switches. Whatever the reason, if you compare the two click leaves, those on blue Alps have a more gradual curve rather than the sharper bend on white Alps. As the click leaf is the principal component responsible for the tactile sensation, it would make sense that it's this chance that causes the difference in feel. It would also explain the slightly lighter keyfeel - although the one usually quotes is within tolerance of the manufacturing equipment. The feeling of clunkiness does translate to a fairly obvious increase in mechanical work, however - again, this is a good example of work rather than peak force being responsible for the perceived "weight" of a keyswitch.

This doesn't explain the "Puntch throught the table" sound what you describe, nor the less-clunky feel of the blue alps.
Can you just simply try swapping parts, and see what's causing it, rather than guessing?

All I know that the switces in my NTC are Extremely tactile, I can't even use that board. it hurts my fingers after a while, but I'm quite heavy handed too. So I don't know. I mutch preferred the ones in my Chicony. They were softer. If Blue alps are just as agressive, I will not like them. But I've put the damped Ivory sliders and tactile leafs in it. This is my favourite board so far. It feels decent, it has nice tactile feedback, and I love it. at least 60% of my Ivory's switchplates were shoot. Not even Kontakt60 has restored them completely. From not registering they became chattery.

[Chyros]

Question about the apparent "weight" of SKCM blue vs. pine white Alps. The forces given in the DT wiki are 70 cN for blue and 68.6 cN for white. So, these numbers are about the same. Yet the subjective "weight" that I experience when typing on blues is that they feel lighter than typing on whites. Apart from the color of the sliders, the components look very similar: springs, sliders, top housings, click leaves. So which component(s) is/are creating the sensation of blues feeling lighter than whites? (Please don't tell me it is the dry lubricant, which might be white or black!).

The click leaves in blue Alps were bent using a different type of procedure, it seems. Matias updated their components in a similar fashion, using bend curves rather than straight bends, on their click switches. Whatever the reason, if you compare the two click leaves, those on blue Alps have a more gradual curve rather than the sharper bend on white Alps. As the click leaf is the principal component responsible for the tactile sensation, it would make sense that it's this chance that causes the difference in feel. It would also explain the slightly lighter keyfeel - although the one usually quotes is within tolerance of the manufacturing equipment. The feeling of clunkiness does translate to a fairly obvious increase in mechanical work, however - again, this is a good example of work rather than peak force being responsible for the perceived "weight" of a keyswitch.

This doesn't explain the "Puntch throught the table" sound what you describe, nor the less-clunky feel of the blue alps.
Can you just simply try swapping parts, and see what's causing it, rather than guessing?

All I know that the switces in my NTC are Extremely tactile, I can't even use that board. it hurts my fingers after a while, but I'm quite heavy handed too. So I don't know. I mutch preferred the ones in my Chicony. They were softer. If Blue alps are just as agressive, I will not like them. But I've put the damped Ivory sliders and tactile leafs in it. This is my favourite board so far. It feels decent, it has nice tactile feedback, and I love it. at least 60% of my Ivory's switchplates were shoot. Not even Kontakt60 has restored them completely. From not registering they became chattery.

No, the click leaf can't on their own immediately explain the sound; I suspect that that's because of other parts, most likely the switchplate. It does account for why blue Alps feel less clunky, though; if you have a click leaf that's not as acutely bent, but rather bent over a curve, you would expect a less balky tactile drop. Blue Alps are really not as aggressive as you seem to think, they feel quite refined IMO.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Jacob#1 has no white Alps graph yet, but SPARC does:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/k ... lpssw.html

Comparing all the graphs, something interesting stands out with blue Alps:

https://plot.ly/~haata/66

Blue is the only type depicted so far where the tactile drop occurs at 2 mm. Every other type has a tactile drop at or centred around 1.5 to 1.7 mm. This means that blue Alps has a longer charging period: the same work, but you get more time to complete it. That alone should make it feel lighter and easier. The ramp-up is also almost completely linear, while the other types all have an engaging step where the force increases suddenly. Even amber Alps is is different to blue: blue is unique amongst all types graphed so far.

Also, SPARC's blue Alps graph shows a much greater force drop-off than that of white Alps, which exactly fits my experience, in that the remainder of the stroke following the tactile peak is very light.

Blue Alps is special, and at this point it seems almost as if Alps screwed up, and that blue Alps represents a failure, as there's no sign that they ever tried to achieve this feel with any other type, contemporary or later. It's a very beneficial failure, but one that makes you wonder why they never tried to achieve the same feel with any other switch.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

No, the click leaf can't on their own immediately explain the sound; I suspect that that's because of other parts, most likely the switchplate. It does account for why blue Alps feel less clunky, though; if you have a click leaf that's not as acutely bent, but rather bent over a curve, you would expect a less balky tactile drop. Blue Alps are really not as aggressive as you seem to think, they feel quite refined IMO.

I'm eager to get a board with blue alps... It shouldn't be an expensive thing though. Here, in Hungary, I bet the keyboard collecting persons can be counted on 5 fingers. But it might be rare. I've already found a Model FXT that's not working, probably controller failure. so Nothing's impossible.

[Hypersphere]

<snip> ... <snip>
Can you just simply try swapping parts, and see what's causing it, rather than guessing?
<snip>

But it's so much fun to speculate! Why destroy beautiful theories with ugly facts!?

[Lynx_Carpathica]

But it's so much fun to speculate! Why destroy beautiful theories with ugly facts!? [/quote]

I'm not religious
Ignorance must be blown away by the Unholly knowlege!
HAIL DESKTHORITY!

[sneaux]

Has anyone tried these?
https://mekanisk.co/collections/keyboar ... -keyboards
I'm really enjoying the quiet click life right now, but am thinking about trying some heavier springs in hopes of a snappier upstroke. Sharper MX Clears without that obnoxious ping is what I'm aiming for I haven't heard anything about these though

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What is it with gold springs anyway?

[Chyros]

They're shiny!

[Hypersphere]

So is this nice iron pyrite (aka "fool's gold"):

pyrite.jpg (55.97 KiB) Viewed 5285 times

[Lynx_Carpathica]

is there a typing difference between old matte, and newer shiny springs in SKCM switches?