Alps Appreciation

[Elrick]

Why do we have to live in a world where some of the best Alps keycaps to be found come from entirely non Alps boards?

That is why you MUST purchase certain keyboards outside the normal realm of Alps keyboards because eventually you'll get a model containing these style of key-caps (with meat on them).

Enjoy them, typically most Alps key-caps are very thin and less satisfying to use compared to thicker walled versions (which are pure delight).

[Hypersphere]

As the Duchess of Windsor famously quipped, "You can never be too rich or too thin".

As with so many things, I suppose these items are a matter of personal taste, and certainly many keyboard enthusiasts place a high value on thickness when it comes to keycaps.

As for me, the particular degree of keycap thickness that I find desirable depends on a number of variables, including the switch type and construction of the keyboard case. Sometimes thin keycaps are better than thicker ones.

In addition, keyboard attributes other than thickness can be equally or more important. These other features include surface feel (such as imparted by ABS vs PBT, etc.), acoustics, and appearance.

Keycaps that I find optimal in most respects include the one-piece dye-sub PBT caps on IBM Model F keyboards, the dye-sub PBT caps on Realforce and HHKB boards, the dye-sub PBT Alps-mount caps on IBM 5140 boards, and the doubleshot ABS Alps-mount caps on Northgate 101 keyboards.

[flowerlandfilms]

As the Duchess of Windsor famously quipped, "You can never be too rich or too thin".

As with so many things, I suppose these items are a matter of personal taste, and certainly many keyboard enthusiasts place a high value on thickness when it comes to keycaps.

As for me, the particular degree of keycap thickness that I find desirable depends on a number of variables, including the switch type and construction of the keyboard case. Sometimes thin keycaps are better than thicker ones.

In addition, keyboard attributes other than thickness can be equally or more important. These other features include surface feel (such as imparted by ABS vs PBT, etc.), acoustics, and appearance.

Keycaps that I find optimal in most respects include the one-piece dye-sub PBT caps on IBM Model F keyboards, the dye-sub PBT caps on Realforce and HHKB boards, the dye-sub PBT Alps-mount caps on IBM 5140 boards, and the doubleshot ABS Alps-mount caps on Northgate 101 keyboards.

I suppose it's also worth mentioning then, that I picked up a Model F from the same guy.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Hello again, from the deepest pits of hell.

I've changed a C64C for an AEKII, and Damn was it worth it... it feels god damn awesome. The uniformity in itself gives the usage, and storage method away. The keycaps are filthy, and the keyboard itself is dusty as hell. But the switches feel nice and clean. Smooth as clean alps ought to be, without major binding issues. should i bother disassembling the switches, and ultrasonic cleaning the all the small bits and pieces of the switches?

[fohat]

But the switches feel nice and clean. Smooth as clean alps ought to be, without major binding issues.

If you are happy with it, no. There are numerous risks in tearing it apart.

[LessthanZero]

See guys this is why I hate ebay. A week ago a leading edge NOS came up along with a delta gold both blue alps both were in good condition. Both were also coveted by yours truly because both boards had been featured in the forums some time back so when I saw they were for sale I thought "hells yeah, time to finally get some NOS blue alps I've only been waiting my whole life. "
Some yokels bid immediately driving the price up needlessly. Wait to bid guys and everyone wins.
I keep an eye on it I was willing to pay 400 and figured I had a good chance. Day of the auction some ahole puts in a bid for 800 then some other yokel raises it to 810.
In disgust I shoot guy a message offering to buy the board direct if the bidders were full of it. I never heard back so I went ahead and got the Delta(which I love its about to be my daily driver the switches are so fresh it makes my GL 102 with blues feel rough in comparison ). Long story short last night I'm checking out ebay and what do I see the same NOS Leading Edge board now on offer for 600 which is still to much money by about 250. Mayb it will still b there next week, not likely if he's willing to let it go for a fair price. But it coulda been mine if not for some jerks. Oh well selah

[//gainsborough]

See guys this is why I hate ebay. A week ago a leading edge NOS came up along with a delta gold both blue alps both were in good condition. Both were also coveted by yours truly because both boards had been featured in the forums some time back so when I saw they were for sale I thought "hells yeah, time to finally get some NOS blue alps I've only been waiting my whole life. "
Some yokels bid immediately driving the price up needlessly. Wait to bid guys and everyone wins.
I keep an eye on it I was willing to pay 400 and figured I had a good chance. Day of the auction some ahole puts in a bid for 800 then some other yokel raises it to 810.
In disgust I shoot guy a message offering to buy the board direct if the bidders were full of it. I never heard back so I went ahead and got the Delta(which I love its about to be my daily driver the switches are so fresh it makes my GL 102 with blues feel rough in comparison ). Long story short last night I'm checking out ebay and what do I see the same NOS Leading Edge board now on offer for 600 which is still to much money by about 250. Mayb it will still b there next week, not likely if he's willing to let it go for a fair price. But it coulda been mine if not for some jerks. Oh well selah

Damn, so you're the guy that outbid me by $5 right at the end of the delta auction =( Glad it went to someone in the community, though. I honestly would forget about the 2014, my dude. The title says NOS but it definitely isn't - even if it was I don't think you should be paying $400 for it. If you like your deltagold and it's switches feel amazing, I can all but guarantee you wouldn't feel any difference between the two boards. I made a rant post in another thread I think, but IMO the perpetuated belief that NOS alps are SO much better than switches in "really good condition" is a false one. I have two NOS blue alps boards, but I can't say they are that much better, if at all, than my boards in really good (but obviously used) condition.

edit: you can also contact Brett directly on DT: ebay-com-f67/nos-blue-alps-f122-t19950.html

[E3E]

Even if NOS, even if NIB, a Leading Edge DC-2014 should never burn a $600 hole in your pocket. Even $400 is much more than I'd ever pay for one. I'd say something around $250 would be much more reasonable for NIB if you really like DC-2014s.

The keyboard has great build quality, great acoustics, but the layout is far from ideal, and it's not a very uncommon keyboard in general.

[Hypersphere]

Blue Alps seem overrated to me. My favorite Alps keyboard ATM is a Northgate 101 that had bamboo white Alps that I swap-modded with tops and sliders from orange Alps. I also like pine white Alps. I even like Matias Clicks.

However, one thing I have noticed is that my blue Alps boards have no binding, even when pressing the keys by one of the corners, whereas my white Alps boards exhibit just a slight amount of binding when pressing the keys by one of the corners. Interestingly, my KBP V60 with Matias Clicks has no binding, even with extreme off-center key presses. These observations are far from scientific and might just reflect relative age and condition of the various boards.

Although I think blue Alps are overrated, I do like my blue Alps boards and have no current plans to sell them!

Whereas blue Alps switches are nice, I agree with E3E about the current overpricing of LE 2014 boards. For those considering an LE 2014, you might opt instead for one of the Zenith "XT" models, such as the XKB-2 with green Alps. I think the build quality of the Zeniths is better than that of the LE 2014, and if you don't like linear switches, with a bit of effort, the greens can be swap-modded (top-modded) with tops from clicky/tactile Alps and click/tactile leaves from clicky/tactile Alps or Matias switches.

Likewise, for those contemplating purchase of an LE 3014, you could go instead with a Northgate 101 or a Zenith 163-73. I am typing this on a Zenith 163-73-1 that originally had yellow Alps switches. I swapped the switch tops with SKCM pine white Alps and installed the white Alps click leaves, keeping the yellow sliders and springs. The result is a very smooth clicky switch that sounds great in the Zenith chassis. The Zenith also has a split Right Shift, and I have remapped the 1x Backslash to the right of the Right Shift as my Fn key. I also use the oversized Right Bracket as Backspace. Another little touch that I like in this particular Zenith is the red lock lights in the windowed Caps Lock, Scroll Lock, and Num Lock keys. Another bonus -- this Zenith model has dye-sub PBT keycaps -- even the spacebar is PBT!

[LessthanZero]

Yeah blue Alps are over-rated people pay alot more for pigment. I have a very nice omnikey that has some very early white alps, in fact it was these white switches that stole me away from Cherry.
Very early white alps are super similar to blues and mechanicaly I can find no difference in the two. So I honestly can't say why they are better or even different.
I work in a plastic factory though(we make tuperware and cups, fast food containers) and pigment can really change a plastics consistency, its feel, how well it forms in the mold. So this might account for some of the difference.
As keyboard enthusiasts we are hyper sensitive to aspects of keyboards and switch feel that regular users don't even recognize. When it comes to blue alps or brown, green there is something within the switch that we are feeling or sensing and we can't always quantify it or even express it in words. Its difficult to explain to my wife, why this switch in that board feels or sounds better to me than a seemingly identical switch in a different casing. Of course it could all just be in my head.

[Chyros]

It's a strange situation. I'd never pay $400 for a blue Alps board, but I'd never SELL my Acer for even double that either xD .

[Hypersphere]

@Chyros: As you've pointed out, the condition of the switches makes a huge difference. You seem to have led a charmed life, at least with respect to finding Alps keyboards at very low cost whose switches were in pristine condition. I actually returned an Acer KB-101A because the switches were in such poor condition they seemed beyond salvaging.

I've also been learning from my experiences with refurbishing Alps-switch keyboards. I'm typing this on one of my earlier projects -- a Northgate 101. I had taken apart the switches, cleaned the parts, and lubed the switches with Super Lube 51010 synthetic oil. The switches are indeed buttery smooth, but the clickiness has been attenuated to the point that they are more like orange Alps than white Alps. This is not necessarily bad, but it has taught me that this type of lubing can dramatically alter the personality of the switch. If I decide to lube Alps switches in future projects, I think I will change to Dupont teflon dry-film lubricant, which is available in spray cans or plastic squeeze bottles. I also have molybdenum disulfide -- this is a black powder that could prove rather messy to use, but it could be suspended in isopropanol or N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone for application to friction points followed by evaporation of the solvent.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

I don't think the price will Ever go down. But, at the same time, this will probably make a good feedback towards switch makers - Fuck MX-style switches, and learn from Alps. Anyway, i dug out from it's box my NTC with White alps, inspired by Lessthan0. (my main is an MX Board 3.0, with MX Blues. I just don't like alps bc of the binding issues, and the cost). But what I realized, is it's worth using the click leafves from this board, and using it in another one. They are consistent, and strong. but the sliders,and the top housing has seen better days. In this form, the keyboard is basically useless.

Edit: The only board I've been extreme lucky with, is my AEKII. With pristine switches. I actually am afraid of using it, I don't want to switches to dieeeeeee

[fohat]

I think I will change to Dupont teflon dry-film lubricant, which is available in spray cans

I used this successfully when I had the switches disassembled. I used it only on the sliders - I laid them out on a sheet of cardboard, sprayed them and let them dry overnight, then turned them over with tweezers and sprayed the other side. I gave them plenty of time to dry and handled them as little as possible as I re-assembled them, leaving everything else dry and clean. These (orange) went into a (black) Dell AT101 chassis and gave a very successful result.

As good as the AT101 chassis is, the Northgate Omnikey 101 is far better. My 2 ultra-premium Alps boards are these: one of them has very clean, lightly used blue Alps soldered in without further modification, and the other, which was New-In-Box for all practical purposes, received almost-new springs and leaves, top-modded, from an Apple AEK, with minimal invasion otherwise, so it is really a Franken-orange although it appears to be white to the eye.

[Hypersphere]

I seem to recall Chyros saying that Alps switches don't bind. Perhaps not if the switches are pristine. I've also found that previously binding switches can be restored to little or no binding via ultrasonic cleaning and lubing (but use lube sparingly). Moreover, my blue Alps boards have no binding.

I'm typing this on my Zenith 163-73-1 containing yellow Alps modded with pine white Alps tops and click leaves. The only key that binds is the reverse-L Return key, and it binds only when pressed in the ascending portion of the key. To me, this hybridized board feels and sounds very similar to my LE 3014 with blue Alps (but I need to test this in a side-by-side comparison).

[//gainsborough]

IMO blue alps aren't overrated - they're just overpriced. I definitely subscribe to the blue-alps-hype and IMO boards with nice blue alps can be worth $250-$300 - perhaps even more for very rare models*. I think I'm mostly upset with how people use the "NOS" tag to tack on a huge extra fee - people put too much stock in the "NOS" tag when non-NOS switches can be just as good. I can maybe understand charging a premium for "NIB" since that is more of a novelty and usually the board is in a much more pristine condition. "NOS" though I feel is misused too often simply to generate hype about the board's condition.

*@Hypersphere are you ready to sell me a 3014 yet? =P

[LessthanZero]

Yeah I'm undecided about lube, well at least as it pertains to Alps keyswitches. If you were going to use it I would recommend a dry teflon type lube, I had also been thinking graphite but it's conductive so I was unsure of using it.
My big thing is never washing the sliders. I wash the upper housing in soapy water with a very small brush. But nylon and water are not friends and I'm fairly sure that complicated alps use Nylon 6/6 which is very sensitive to moisture I live in the southern united states and our humidity causes quality problems with the plastic we manufacture. We have to store it in a dryer. With how tight the tolerances are in the switches any slider swelling or warping would really screw with keyfeel. This is all my own conjecture but it makes sense to me. So i just wipe the sliders with a dry cloth, so far I haven't ran into any switches I couldn't bring back. Of course if the slider is scratched or warped your probably sol anyway.
Yeah I've never found anything good locally recycling centers here don't have much and with my locale the chance or a cool board showing up at goodwill is apparently zero because I have went every week for decades and I've found a few Commodores and an old atari. So if I want a board I gotta pay. A few years back this stuff wasnt worth near as much, I blame youtube and the youth of america, and Chyros

[Hypersphere]

@fohat: Thanks for the Alps lubing tips. Did your spray method get the lubricant on the sides of the sliders as well as on the front and back? What about the top switch housings -- did you not lubricate these at all?

[Lynx_Carpathica]

the ultimate question: how long does a lubed switch hold up?

[Muirium]

Ah, you're like me and retrobright!

keyboards-f2/retrobrite-the-yellow-stri ... t6084.html

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: It's those damn [free] radicals!

@Lynx_Carpathica: Regarding the longevity of lubricants, oils can entrap dirt, which, if sufficiently abrasive, can gradually undo the benefit of oil. Dry lubricants are probably better. I recall seeing images of blue sliders showing lingering dark smudges that have been attributed to some mystery dry lubricant applied at the time of manufacture. I suspect this might be molybdenum disulfide, but I have not seen any evidence from chemical analysis. This is reminiscent of the endless speculations about what makes a Stradivarius violin sound the way it does (at least when played by a virtuoso violinist).

It's a strange situation. I'd never pay $400 for a blue Alps board, but I'd never SELL my Acer for even double that either xD .

@Chyros: What is the model number of your Acer? Does it have doubleshot ABS? Mine is the Acer KB-101A, which appears to have dye-sub ABS caps. Unfortunately, the case and caps are extremely yellowed, and the Acer cases become quite brittle after UV-accelerated aging. However, the switches seem to be in good operating order.

[DocNoc]

https://imgur.com/gallery/skB87aJ really enjoying this build Brown alps are pretty interesting

[xtreg]

https://imgur.com/gallery/skB87aJ really enjoying this build Brown alps are pretty interesting

How interesting? Daily driver interesting? All time favorite interesting?

Sent from my MI 6 using Tapatalk

[DocNoc]

https://imgur.com/gallery/skB87aJ really enjoying this build Brown alps are pretty interesting

How interesting? Daily driver interesting? All time favorite interesting?

Sent from my MI 6 using Tapatalk

I don't have nearly the level of experience or knowledge of alps that some of the people in this thread do, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I personally love them and they are currently my favorite alps switch. There is not really anything like them that I have had the opportunity to try. I have tried browns, oranges, undamped creams, blues, and ambers. It is currently my daily driver and I am loving it. I will say that what people say is true, they are really heavy switches. For the first few days I did find my hands getting fatigued, but now I don't notice it. They are very tactile like everyone says, but like I said the switch feel is really strange and different from anything I've been able to experience. As far as it being my all time favorite I don't think I've been around the block enough yet to know if they will hold that title, but as of right now they are by far my favorite.

[Hypersphere]

@DocNoc: You have discerning taste in keyboard switches! SKCM Brown Alps are indeed interesting (and very heavy).

When I first tried Brown Alps, they were in an IBM 5140 keyboard, where they seemed agreeably tactile but not too heavy. However, I then got a custom 60% with Brown Alps with a stainless steel plate and a TEX aluminum case. The Brown Alps then felt too stiff to me for prolonged typing sessions. Consequently, I decided to do a "top-mod" with top switch housings, springs, sliders, and click leaves from SKCM Blue Alps.

Now the keyboard is usable as a daily driver. If anything, the Blue Alps are a bit too light, and in a small metal case they lack the bassy timbre imparted to them by a large plastic shell, such as the case of a full-size Leading Edge DC-3014.

Where did you source your Brown Alps? The ones in my custom came from a Magnavox VideoWriter, and they were in pristine condition.

[zrrion]

You could probably swap the springs out for something lighter without any issue since tactile alps switches don't suffer from the same return issues that highly tactile MX or box switches do if you try to make them light. But if you've become accustomed to them I wouldn't bother with something like that personally.

[DocNoc]

@DocNoc: You have discerning taste in keyboard switches! SKCM Brown Alps are indeed interesting (and very heavy).

When I first tried Brown Alps, they were in an IBM 5140 keyboard, where they seemed agreeably tactile but not too heavy. However, I then got a custom 60% with Brown Alps with a stainless steel plate and a TEX aluminum case. The Brown Alps then felt too stiff to me for prolonged typing sessions. Consequently, I decided to do a "top-mod" with top switch housings, springs, sliders, and click leaves from SKCM Blue Alps.

Now the keyboard is usable as a daily driver. If anything, the Blue Alps are a bit too light, and in a small metal case they lack the bassy timbre imparted to them by a large plastic shell, such as the case of a full-size Leading Edge DC-3014.

Where did you source your Brown Alps? The ones in my custom came from a Magnavox VideoWriter, and they were in pristine condition.

I got my browns from a friend, not sure what they were salvaged from. They are in great condition. its on a 3mm acrylic plate but unfortunately I have never tried another brown build other than my own so I don't know if there is a material or setup I would prefer over my current one

[Lynx_Carpathica]

I wonder if we could make a Kickstarter campaign to raise for new tactile leaves like in Lyme green Alps. Make a video with Linus or something. Do tactile and click leaves from for example an SKCM Blue work in a Mathias switch?

[Chyros]

I wonder if we could make a Kickstarter campaign to raise for new tactile leaves like in Lyme green Alps. Make a video with Linus or something. Do tactile and click leaves from for example an SKCM Blue work in a Mathias switch?

One of the two is slightly larger so they're one-way compatible, but I always forget which way around.

There is absolutely no reason why it should be impossible, or even anything other than fairly easy, to remake Neon Green leaves for Matias switches. I once approached them with the offer of giving them ideas for other switch types, but they never responded.

[bujorc]

I wonder if we could make a Kickstarter campaign to raise for new tactile leaves like in Lyme green Alps. Make a video with Linus or something. Do tactile and click leaves from for example an SKCM Blue work in a Mathias switch?

I'm in... for any SKCM/SKCL-related initiative, actually

As for Matias to actually do something on this topic... you can forget it, I don't think they have the man power/desire/energy/whatever, anymore. When it's taking you years to produce some (hopefully) quality pbt caps, it's clear... I think it's easier to convince Cherry MX-clone producers riding the big wave right now to take on such tasks.

Meanwhile, Chyros will have figured out the chemical composition of the lube Alps were using...