The Oracle Answers

[Muirium]

Entertaining (and lengthy) thread, Soarer! My rudimentary understanding of springs is that they follow Hooke's Law unless you damage them. So the gradient of the force / travel graph should be constant for each spring. That's the strength I'm talking about.

Tolerances are rough, of course. (Cherry's springs aren't what they used to be.) But springs are inherently simple things, while our expectations of combinatory magic are less so!

[Halvar]

Soarer's measurements look like there's at least four different springs:

1) blue and brown
2) green and black
3) gray 37 and 39
4) clear (probably shorter than gray, but same high k)

[b3n]

Summer of Ping's bastard stepchild: Spring of Spring.

Just had a quick read of the thread... Seems more complicated than I thought haha.
I initially wanted to put blue springs in a black keyboard (I have the springs & keyboard as spares) but I guess it wouldn't be /exactly/ the same as reds.

[Halvar]

These switch types have been manufactured for decades, and Cherry surely doesn't make its own springs. So it's no far stretch to assume that they had different suppliers for springs over time. And as far as we know, they don't even manufacture all the switches all the time at the same time. I don't believe in a deliberate design decision to use springs for MX blue, brown and red each that differ by +-2g.

[Soarer]

It's more that the specification of the slope (cn/mm) might differ... but this isn't the place the discuss it!

I initially wanted to put blue springs in a black keyboard (I have the springs & keyboard as spares) but I guess it wouldn't be /exactly/ the same as reds.

As good as the same in practice

[Urthor]

@Muirium and Beardsmore, forgot to thank you two for the great advice before. At the end of the day I found someone to try the regular with and held out for the 55g variant. Not one single tiny ounce of regret now I've got it, I love the uniform 55g and wouldn't even consider the lower weights except possibly for sound, and yes it's just an unreal feeling coming off membrane for this.

[Muirium]

I'll bet it is! Welcome to the legendary "cloud of boobs" typing experience.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I thought that term referred to linear? I didn't know that human flesh had a tactile curve, but then you might have an unusual girlfriend.

[JBert]

I believe it's slang for any Topre switch, named after the way the rubber sheet looks when all the plungers are taken off. Either that or was it more Engrish, I can't remember...

[Muirium]

I thought that term referred to linear? I didn't know that human flesh had a tactile curve, but then you might have an unusual girlfriend.

Ah, you're probably right about the term. Topre is more like typing on nipples than boobs, per se.

Any excuse to experiment...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It even has its own wiki page: [wiki]Cloud of boobs[/wiki]

Light and smooth switches, including tactile, though the light Topre switches aren't terribly tactile. 45 cN is where you start getting decent tactility.

For a true comparison you'd need to alter the spherical aberration correction on one of those laser projection keyboards, though depending on the dimensions of the test subject, you are likely to also need to reprogram the projection keyboard for a half-keyboard layout. Two of those each programmed to the correct half would give you an ergonomic layout.

[urbancamo]

I can't get on with reds at all. Which is a shame because there are some lovely keyboards using reds. Plan on selling my noopoo which is the only reds keyboard I have. Back to at least browns for me, even maybe (shock horror) blacks. Topre seems to be fine for me however...

[Muirium]

Any idea why? I find linears very easy to get on with, compared to say browns. They're hard to get wrong.

[adhoc]

So, ANSI layout, PBT, if possible blank, TKL or less...as cheap as possible. Anything besides poker (which is PBT only in ISO)?

[urbancamo]

Any idea why? I find linears very easy to get on with, compared to say browns. They're hard to get wrong.

I just find reds too light. Maybe it's because I chop and change keyboards a lot, and maybe it is as much to do with using an 86 key layout - perhaps I'm also used to keyboards with a slightly wider key profile.

I guess reds are at the extreme end of switches in terms of force, maybe I'm just too heavy handed for them

[Muirium]

My two main MX keyboards: a 60% with greens and a TKL with reds.

All the others: buckling spring!

Seems to work for me. My fingers know they're in for a lot of variety.

[Spearman]

Two questions:

1)
Are there any Keyboards or keycap sets with printed US International layout:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_US ... tional.svg

2)
Filco Minila features a 4th row set 1/4 unit to the left of usual position. Are there any keyboards that feature a numeric row moved to the right 1/4 unit? And does anyone find it difficult to get used to the different layout? The only reason I would have for such a layout is to use an embedded num-pad layer; on a thinkpad keyboard with an embedded numpad having the keys offset by 1/2 unit is too much for me to use as a normal numpad but I was thinking having the keys be realigned would help somewhat.

Ultimately I'll probably have to build my own when I have the resources, just curious if there is anything out there to generate ideas.

[mrt181]

Oh mighty Oracle,

I am a novice to superior typing technologies and I am looking for an US (International) layout keyboard for my coding needs.

• It can be tenkeyless but then should offer a separate numpad (external or internal) if possible
• It should provide tactile feedback
• It should be usable in an open plan workspace (not loud)
• It should not wear off easily
• It can be expensive if it must be

Oh mighty Oracle please bless me with insight

[Muirium]

If money is no object, go straight to Topre. The tactile feedback is smooth, the sound melodious and subtle, the caps impervious, and the layout options quite extensive. Separate numpads and TKLs are available and of course full size layouts:

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products. ... _keyboards

Topre is something everyone must try on their journey, eventually. Its high esteem means high used pricing, and if you are in Europe expect this to be higher. But the path leads us to struggles, sometimes, and so we overcome them.

That or MX brown or clear. But those stink in comparison.

[mrt181]

So Topre it must be. After reading more about those I was enlightened and need to decide between these:

• Realforce 87UB 45g
• Realforce 87UB 55g
• Realforce 87UB variable "Silent"

Is there a non variable silent option, mighty oracle

[Muirium]

Apparently not at EK. The Keyboard Company also sells them in Britain, but with less selection. I see no silent versions here at all:

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/uk-r ... yboard.asp

As for sound, fear not the standard Realforce. As this is its song:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mv8f7g7fete8p ... lforce.m4a

Versus an MX red Ducky for comparison:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqagga96lyq7i ... %20Red.m4a

Variable weighting is the koan within. He who thinks he will be annoyed, is he who needs it most…

[snowyBlinds]

Oh might Oracle... is there a Topre with a traditional 70% layout? By traditional I mean the layout on the new Noppoo Choc Mini... as seen here

I use the F's keys, arrow keys, end, home, and delete a pretty regularly through the day when writing/debugging code. I'm not sure I would like having them as secondary keys (Think HHKB). Otherwise I'd get a HHKB.

Does this keyboard exist? Should I stop searching and get a HHKB even thought it doesn't have the dedicated keys mentioned above? Or stick with a TKL and wait for the CM Novatouch TKL? [My current two mech boards are TKL's. The only thing I currently have with the layout I requested is my laptop keyboard.]

Wants:
*Traditional 70% layout
*Topre

Bonus:
*pbt

Not needed:
*backlighting

Thanks Orcale and DT crew.

[Muirium]

The way of Topre does not pass through the place that you seek. Between the mighty mountains of Realforce, and the plateau with the serene temple of Happiness through Hacking at its crest, lies the valley of confusion. Beware! For there is no simple solution in that cursed land.

Some live contented in the valley. Fine keyboards exist there, but none are Topre. (Well, that this particular avatar is aware of.) For the problem is that confusion reigns in the valley. Unlike the well established TKL, and the serene Zen of the HHKB, everything in between is different, unique to itself. The Noppoo has a 5.5 unit space bar! The Leopold FC660 has an ungainly right shift and an isle of banished keys. The Matias Mini has a treacherous function key. And the Filco Minila is of course accursed. What pleases one man haunts another. The apparent unity of that place is but an illusion.

So, what does the Topre traveller seek?

Have a look at the Novatouch when it is apparent. And decide between the reassuring comfort of TKL and the challenging, unforgiving perfection of HHKB when the path reveals itself.

Incidentally, both HHKB and Realforces are topped with dye sublime PBT, as you wish. The Novatouch is not, but may be upgraded easily. And the way of Topre never passes through the bordello of backlights.

[snowyBlinds]

This is a good point... RealForce is here now with PBT's. Novatouch is in the future with ABS (albeit with Cherry cap compatibility). I'm sure the Novatouch will be cheaper, but possibly on par w/ RF price wise once PBT's are added. I have a feeling the overall quality of the RealForce will be higher..

Perhaps I should put my vanity aside (I don't like the extra wasted space above the F row on the RealForce) and get the RF now instead of waiting on a -probably- lower quality Novatouch.

Thank you all mighty Mu.

[Muirium]

You are welcome, traveller.

Without a trove of PBT caps already in hand, the Realforce is more compelling. It is legend, right out of the box.

Now meditate on the weighting options discussed above. Uniquely among Topres, the Realforce comes in all of them.

[Hypersphere]

I believe it's slang for any Topre switch, named after the way the rubber sheet looks when all the plungers are taken off. Either that or was it more Engrish, I can't remember...

Indeed. It is akin to the lines in T.S. Eliot's "Whispers of Immortality", in which he says,
"Uncorseted, her friendly bust
Gives promise of pneumatic bliss."

[Hypersphere]

The way of Topre does not pass through the place that you seek. Between the mighty mountains of Realforce, and the plateau with the serene temple of Happiness through Hacking at its crest, lies the valley of confusion. Beware! For there is no simple solution in that cursed land.

Some live contented in the valley. Fine keyboards exist there, but none are Topre. (Well, that this particular avatar is aware of.) For the problem is that confusion reigns in the valley. Unlike the well established TKL, and the serene Zen of the HHKB, everything in between is different, unique to itself. The Noppoo has a 5.5 unit space bar! The Leopold FC660 has an ungainly right shift and an isle of banished keys. The Matias Mini has a treacherous function key. And the Filco Minila is of course accursed. What pleases one man haunts another. The apparent unity of that place is but an illusion.

So, what does the Topre traveller seek?

Have a look at the Novatouch when it is apparent. And decide between the reassuring comfort of TKL and the challenging, unforgiving perfection of HHKB when the path reveals itself.

Incidentally, both HHKB and Realforces are topped with dye sublime PBT, as you wish. The Novatouch is not, but may be upgraded easily. And the way of Topre never passes through the bordello of backlights.

Poetic! I love it! Especially the last line. Beautiful and true.

[Muirium]

Generosity from he whose path crosses both the way of Topre and the buckling of a thousand springs. Perplexing, but I find a similar direction of opposites united for myself. Contemplation on the nature of Yin and Yang lies ahead, perhaps while ascending the Alps.

[webwit]

Muirium has decided: Generosity from he whose path crosses both the way of Topre and the buckling of a thousand springs. Perplexing, but I find a similar direction of opposites united for myself. Contemplation on the nature of Yin and Yang lies ahead, perhaps while ascending the Alps.

FTFY.

[Muirium]

Thank you master. I, ah, was just cleaning the ashram!