The Oracle Answers

[Muirium]

Dear Oracle.

I guess it is a good place to start by asking what keyboard should I pursue next.

I currently use Lenovo 73P2620 and Fujitsu KPQ-E99AC-14 (this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFtSSXJ8D64). The first one has GREAT wrist comfort, the second is quite ok, especially with the key switching technology.

What I do on the computer: emails and other corporate stuff, writing technical docs, linux administration.

What would be nice: tenkeyless with wrist rest, normal arrows page up/down insert/delete home/end keys, something cheap possibly, available in the EU. I was thinking about something on MX Blue's + custom wrist rest (cm quickfire rapid mx blue maybe), but it might not be the best direction.

Is that Fujitsu buckling spring? The video never actually takes a cap off, but the backplate looks almost right.

Anyway, as Daniel says, MX blue is pretty damn loud, as far as office environments go. Great for solo work though.

If you want TKL and MX, the CM QFR is the entry level standard bearer. Ducky and Filco TKLs are good and solid above that.

[jakkul]

well, I would like to take the keyboard to work and continue using the Fujitsu at home (which has topre-like mitsumi switches just like this IBM http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cf ... /id/551026). It might happen that some people in the openspace would not like that. Using MX blue's at home is not an option - I've got two kids (Voyttek 4 y/o and Yagdzya 2 y/o) and I use the PC mainly when they are already sleeping.

Are the MX blues THAT noisy?

[Muirium]

Check out the quick videos in my Ducky Shine 3 review for realistic MX red, green (same as blue), and IBM buckling spring comparisons:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/ducky ... t7130.html

I recorded them all with the same mic and setup. That's how they are!

[jakkul]

Is that Fujitsu buckling spring? The video never actually takes a cap off, but the backplate looks almost right.

I googled and this is not Fujitsu buckling spring, but this http://deskthority.net/wiki/Buckling_rubber_sleeve the first pic.

The keyboard was made in 1997 and I got it brand new last month.

Here are some pics by my friend http://utensilia.tk/txt/urzadzenia/fuji ... 9ac-14.htm. The site is in Polish, but the numbers there are links to pics.

I can get some more of these keyboards, if you live in the EU...

[Hypersphere]

Regarding TKL Cherry mx keyboards, I own a CM QFR Stealth with mx greens, a Ducky Shine 2 with mx browns, a Filco Majestouch Ninja with mx blues, and a Kul ES-87 with mx clears. They have similar features and quality, but I would rank them as follows: Kul > Filco > CM > Ducky. My ranking is based on features and my perception of quality; it is not based on key switch preferences.

One of the things I like about the Kul is its abundance of DIP switches for a number of popular settings, including the ability to remap the Fn key.

The Kul also has some thoughtful touches such as a beveled edge on the bottom with its own extra set of rubber grips; these come into play if you use the flip-up legs to elevate the keyboard. I have seen this feature on only one other keyboard: the top-end Topre Realforce 87u.

Other TKL boards that look good to me but that I have not tried out personally are the WASD Keyboards V2 87 and CODE 87.

FYI, my own current favorites among all keyboards that I have tried are the IBM XT, IBM SSK, RF 87u 55g, and HHKB Pro 2.

[jakkul]

Check out the quick videos in my Ducky Shine 3 review for realistic MX red, green (same as blue), and IBM buckling spring comparisons:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/ducky ... t7130.html

I recorded them all with the same mic and setup. That's how they are!

Nice article! I've listened to them. I love the way IBM's sound. It's hard to compare the noise, I guess I'll have to find a shop near the place I live in (Warsaw, PL) where they have different MX-es to test.

I had tried Das Keyboard on MX browns at work. It was ticking off just one person in the room. I guess MX blues would not be much louder. What I miss in MX browns is some sort of tactile feedback - I did not feel the moment of registering the keys under my fingers.

[Muirium]

MX browns are my least favourite of the whole line. Reds are quite nice though. I've come to prefer them over clicky MX, actually. They just seem to suit my style. There's much better clicky switches out there than anything Cherry makes, like vintage IBM of course. All loud!


@Hypersphere: KULs (ugh, that name!) aren't exactly easy to find in Europe. According to their own site, there's only one place over here that sells them:

http://www.keyeduplabs.com/buy.html

But a search for KUL on mechanicalkeyboards.nl isn't reassuring!

http://www.mechanicalkeyboards.nl/zoekf ... search=kul

[Hypersphere]

MX browns are my least favourite of the whole line. Reds are quite nice though. I've come to prefer them over clicky MX, actually. They just seem to suit my style. There's much better clicky switches out there than anything Cherry makes, like vintage IBM of course. All loud!


@Hypersphere: KULs (ugh, that name!) aren't exactly easy to find in Europe. According to their own site, there's only one place over here that sells them:

http://www.keyeduplabs.com/buy.html

But a search for KUL on mechanicalkeyboards.nl isn't reassuring!

http://www.mechanicalkeyboards.nl/zoekf ... search=kul

Nevertheless, I have been positively impressed by Kul. They are a new company, and it may take a while for their products to disseminate globally.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I had tried Das Keyboard on MX browns at work. It was ticking off just one person in the room. I guess MX blues would not be much louder.

In sound tests, MX blue doesn't come out that much louder. (When I made a series of recordings, everything came out the same, so I'm guessing there was some automatic gain control involved somewhere as the recordings seemed far more evenly matched than reality).

The difference with blue isn't so much the sound level, but the sound itself. The click sound is very sharp and high-pitched, and rattly, and it's a much more distracting sound. Any clicky keyboard though is going to be much more evident to people around you owing to either the level of sound (buckling spring) or the sharp, loud click sounds.

You might also want something with Cherry stabilisers, as it cuts out all the clang from stabilised keys. You can get stabiliser clang from even rubber dome keyboards, but with a mechanical it removes one element of the sound and probably the most annoying. (Two of use in the office use Cherry MX keyboards, both with Cherry stabilisers, and the other guy's is PCB mount so it's even quieter than mine.)

[Muirium]

Blues really are objectively louder. If you're using a phone to make recordings, or anything else that's trying to outsmart you, it's not a sound test. My microphone is good and dumb. I paid extra for that, much like a DSLR! For keyboard recordings, I pop it on the desk just behind the keyboard, set OS X's input volume to 50%, and type. No level adjustment anywhere in the process.

You're right that sound has quality as well as volume. Clicky switches have an extra sound laid on top of the clacking (that even linear switches make). MX blues have a particularly high pitched click that really does fill a room, even over other noise. Buckling spring is louder, but I find it easier on the ears because of the lower pitch. Although you get a lot of pinging and ringing from the springs! According to my microphone, my NMB with clicky Space Invaders is just as loud or louder than any of those, but its clicks have a good low pitch to them and I find its choral thumping a pleasant sound quite its own:

Mind, only MX blues (and greens and whites) are still manufactured in TKL. Unicomp keeps the IBM legacy alive, but only in full size. And NMB pulled the plug on space invaders, which I've yet to see in TKL. IBM's SSK is one of the best TKLs ever made, it basically defined the layout, but even 25 years old they cost a fair penny!

[Hypersphere]

Yes, to me mx blues feel and sound like typing on "rice crispies" cereal or like crunching little styrofoam peanuts. It's not an agreeable sound to my ears like the metallic snap of an IBM XT or the thock/clop of a Topre RF 87u.

[Muirium]

Always bear in mind just how egregiously, eyewateringly, nightmarishly expensive those Topres are over here in Europe, Hyper. £192 ($310) for the TKL, not the Type-S!, without shipping on top, and this happens if you import from America. When someone's from Europe, like Jakkul, suggesting Topre to them is about as useful as an industrial SSK or a DataHand… fine if money is no object!

[Hypersphere]

Always bear in mind just how egregiously, eyewateringly, nightmarishly expensive those Topres are over here in Europe, Hyper. £192 ($310) for the TKL, not the Type-S!, without shipping on top, and this happens if you import from America. When someone's from Europe, like Jakkul, suggesting Topre to them is about as useful as an industrial SSK or a DataHand… fine if money is no object!

Didn't intend to tantalize a man dying of thirst in the desert with images of cool mountain springs; it is difficult to curb my enthusiasm for my favorite switches. It would be like not being able to flaunt my custom board with its shiny new granite set.

[Muirium]

I think, once upon a time, I used to advise everyone here who posed an idiosyncratic feature list with one and the same suggestion: build a custom. I was doing it myself, after all. But since then I learned that jumping in the deep end isn't generally people's way. They want a place to begin. And they often spell it right out in their question: which MX keyboard?

Not all of us are destined to explore the higher reaches of the mountains. As not all of us have a head for heights!

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: Yes, increasingly, I have tried to be mindful of the OP's actual question and try to answer it first, but it can still be useful to offer some context (such as my own preferences) and some ultimate goals.

When I started out, I was searching for a fairly standard TKL board with mx switches, and I got some answers along those lines from the forums. But I was also intrigued and inspired by people telling me that I might not be satisfied by anything that was merely off the shelf, and I should consider building a custom board. This gave me something to aspire to as a long-range goal. I am now at the stage of undertaking some modifications, refurbishing, and converting. And maybe someday I will design and build my own keyboard.

It has taken me some time to figure out that I really don't like any Cherry mx switch that I have tried to any extent (this now includes blue, vintage black, clear, brown, and green). I think this is because they all involve increasing force throughout the downward displacement without collapse of a dome or buckling of the spring. I like some of the Alps switches (including Matias) and Space Invaders switches better, but Topre and IBM capacitive buckling spring best of all. Haven't tried mx reds yet -- maybe this will be the one that enables me to be satisfied with a Cherry-switch board!

[Muirium]

More complete context: remember to note how expensive or difficult to attain things are, when you mention them. (That's what parentheticals are for.) I could laud my Kishsaver all day, but you know the deal getting hold of those!

[Hypersphere]

More complete context: remember to note how expensive or difficult to attain things are, when you mention them. (That's what parentheticals are for.) I could laud my Kishsaver all day, but you know the deal getting hold of those!

We can try to be kind, but brevity has its own mercies. Delineating all caveats could get rather cumbersome. And some omissions could be the result of ignorance. People need to be given some credit for being able to figure things out for themselves.

BTW, now that I have finally decided on a keyboard gradient ranging from those I like least to those I like most, this week I am taking some action to prune my collection, starting by putting most of my Cherry mx boards up for sale on eBay, to be followed by some of my Cherry keycap sets.

[Muirium]

eBay, eh? I'd try the classifieds here first and save yourself some fees, and potential hassle.

But good on you for learning to let go. I need to do some of that myself. (Cue a hungry mob looking for my Kishsaver! Never!!)

[Hypersphere]

eBay, eh? I'd try the classifieds here first and save yourself some fees, and potential hassle.

But good on you for learning to let go. I need to do some of that myself. (Cue a hungry mob looking for my Kishsaver! Never!!)

If the ones I am parting with first were anything special that could not be purchased relatively easily in Europe, I would certainly want to give those on DT the first crack at them. But then there are also overseas shipping costs and potentially customs fees to consider. And I am making it relatively easy on myself by having my wife handle all the eBay stuff; she has been selling other items on eBay for some time. Then, if the first wave of keyboards sell relatively easily, she might be more easily persuaded that I really do need to buy that Type-S HHKB!

[webwit]

Oh you have to ask permission to your mother^d^d^d^d^d^dwife.

[the1onewolf]

Leopold 750R has a built in sound dampening sheets which makes it a bit more suitable for office work

[jakkul]

Thank you for your comments. Some were delightful, some were very informative, some were both.

Ah, yes, I did ask for permission from my wife to get myself a new toy That feels a bit strange, since she does not consult me if she goes to get ANOTHER pair of shoes or a new dress/bag/what-the-s**t-ever because she does not have anything that matches the shoes. Well, as once someone said on a LFS network match "I prefer to beat your ass with a cheap logitech mouse instead of a G27 racing wheel and have sex with my wife instead of watching porn".

I guess I'll need to seach for a place to test MX switches in Warsaw/PL to decide for myself. Getting a sensible ALPS keyboard is possible, but those are very very rare here. IBM Ms with buckling springs died out already. I worked as a helpdesk guy in 1999-2001 and I remember carrying dozens of model Ms to trash - young people are idiots.

Tenkeylesses MX blue boards are not obtainable here, or carry a hefty 50% price penalty for taxes and transit from the US. 100 USD is max for me.

Buying a Topre board is very interesting. Althought it's expensive I guess it would be the last keyboard I buy. The idea has two downsides: 1. PRICE, 2. I would not be able to type on any other board any more.

I guess that some of you tested Kailh switches. Some might have had some experience with Zalman K500 keyboard on Kailh Reds. How bad is it? The price is roughly equivalent to vintage mechanical keyboards back here.

[Muirium]

Actually, does anyone here have experience with Kailh/Razer MX clones? I don't, but I'm more into relics anyway.

Speaking of which: a cheap modern mech vs. a classic is a no brainer, if you ask me. Go vintage! Depends how much you like cleaning up old boards, of course, and your sensible desire for a TKL limits things a bit. My smallest vintage boards are also my most valuable! Well, besides that bargain Minitouch with Montereys I got, and the $25 SSK… sometimes you get lucky!

[scottc]

Hey jakkul, if you're in Warsaw then you might be in luck. I've seen nice keyboards go for like 100zł on Allegro before - check it out.

[jakkul]

Hey jakkul, if you're in Warsaw then you might be in luck. I've seen nice keyboards go for like 100zł on Allegro before - check it out.

Scott, I'm in constant contact with the dude that sells them. This is the same guy that recorded the video with the Fujitsu keyboard. He lives in 3city. He does not have anything with GB or UK layout ATM for sale. Actually that man made me write articles about keyboards If you've got someone else in mind, please provide link.

Speaking of which: a cheap modern mech vs. a classic is a no brainer, if you ask me. Go vintage! [...] Well, besides that bargain Minitouch with Montereys I got, and the $25 SSK… sometimes you get lucky!

Dude, SSK would end the discussion for me. Most of those keyboards is still in the US and if someone sells one at a decent price on ebay, he/she is not willing to send it overseas. That Minitouch board you have is ultra-sweet. Envy^2

[scottc]

Scott, I'm in constant contact with the dude that sells them. This is the same guy that recorded the video with the Fujitsu keyboard. He lives in 3city. He does not have anything with GB or UK layout ATM for sale. Actually that man made me write articles about keyboards If you've got someone else in mind, please provide link.

I actually got two Cherry G80-2500s (vintage blacks, Polish-layout ISO doubleshots, but don't seem to be convertible) NIB for like 130zł each, but they're no longer up there. The guy must've run out.

[jakkul]

Guys, since we get along so nice, I've got to settle one more thing: To be TKL or not to be TKL.

Is the hand movement towards the mouse on the right that much shorter and faster, that getting a TKL is worth that much of a hustle? Or not? Some of you still use old terminal keyboards that have a big border around the ten-keys-area and I guess that prefer them even if the mouse is soooooo far away.

[The Keyboard Oracle]

The Keyboard Oracle has decided: 'tis not the size of the wand, 'tis the magician that uses it.

[the1onewolf]

I have some experience with kailh reds - I got a keycool numpad. It's a bit harder to press down compared to cherry reds but the linear downward action feels the same to MX reds
(On phone so this might be a crappy explanation)

[Muirium]

Guys, since we get along so nice, I've got to settle one more thing: To be TKL or not to be TKL.

Is the hand movement towards the mouse on the right that much shorter and faster, that getting a TKL is worth that much of a hustle? Or not? Some of you still use old terminal keyboards that have a big border around the ten-keys-area and I guess that prefer them even if the mouse is soooooo far away.

Now we're getting into Oracle territory! Let us meditate on the meaning of the mouse…

There's no one true universal answer to which keyboard form factor is the best. Instead, there's lots of individual ones.

For me, I use my mouse moderately. (I don't play FPS games, but I'm no text console guru like 7bit either.) So I could put up with it somewhere awkward, I suppose. But I prize symmetry to an illogical degree. Right now, I'm standing at this for instance:



Yes, it's an ancient iMac. (11 years old and still kinda, sorta, almost useable on the internet.) But it makes a nice podcast player, and my posture gets terrible if I sit all the time so I have it up on a chest of drawers so I can mix things up and stand.

I like things centred. My SSK (and other TKLs) make that pretty easy. Fullsize keyboards are tougher. I'm on my NMB just now, and so I have its 60% block centred below the screen, which is centred on the desk. The keyboard juts far off to the right because of that, I can barely place my mouse on the sliver of space out that side. So I use it on the left instead. I'm right handed, but a bit of ambidextrous mousing is as good a change as standing up.

A 60% feels like a quarter the size of this keyboard! When I use my custom, the desk is shockingly larger. I fill it all up with junk almost immediately of course (besides the mouse's ledge, which is swept clear much like a windscreen with a running wiper…) but it's a glorious advantage that feels bigger than it thinks. I do suggest trying a tiny keyboard sometime just to find out.

I often hear, and I shall concur, that the TKL is the sweet spot. You get a lot of space back, from an especially awkward place, just by dropping the numpad. TKLs have zero adjustment period unless you're a heavy number-puncher. Going smaller gets harder. You start losing dedicated keys for very basic things, and must learn them on layers instead. It works handsomely for some of us, but isn't for the faint of heart.



Anyway, it's all tradeoffs. Larger keyboards have everything covered with its own dedicated keys (including, yes, arrows!) and humongous keyboards bring 24 extra programmable function keys to play so you can go nuts using those. Yet they come at the cost of another kind of elegance. Not that my old G4 popped on a dresser might be the best advocate for that, but hopefully you get the idea!