Dear Model F owners, can we talk? (Long rant)

[Bitteneite]

Before starting, I do realise that everyone here is entitled to his/her own opinion and preferences. This is more of a rant than anything, but please understand that it's expressed out of genuine confusion. I'm just someone on the internet sharing his honest opinion. This is not how I want my first post to be, but it frustrates me to see the state of the usual Model M vs F argument.

Over the past years, I've gone through a handful of Model Ms, Model Fs, and a Beamspring. In all my years, I’ve never understood why we hate on Model Ms, of all keyboards, so damn much. I understand that what I'm about to say will definitely grind the gears of many elitists here, but there are things which I'd like to clear up for the newcomers in this hobby, as well as a dear note to those who love their Model F.

(From here on out, I'll refer to a "Model F" by just writing "F", "Buckling Springs" as just "BS", etc.)

One day, I was at a point where I just felt stupid for going for an M as my first vintage board, even though I loved it. I kept reading, post after post, Geekhack after Deskthority, about the seemingly endless claims on how Fs straight up blow all Ms out of the water.

So I did the next logical step and bought one, expecting to dump my M behind.
A package arrived a few weeks later, and I was ready to "ascend".
Suddenly, my M felt like an old car, whereas this F XT actually felt like a proper classic car! It had more metal. It felt denser, more solid, just more of everything! It sure satisfied the build upgrade I had in mind.

And then came the switches, which were noticeably lighter... but that's pretty much it. They felt otherwise identical, except for the sound. Side by side, the F felt a tiny bit smoother compared to the 1992 Model M I had at that time. Where is the rest? Where is the part about them putting my M in the trash? Am I missing anything?

Even today, I can't see that day-and-night difference, in terms of smoothness, between my 3 Fs and half a dozen Ms. I even have a few early Ms that are just as smooth, if not smoother.

For all the expectations I’ve built up from what I've read, I was pretty disappointed. The switches are just a tiny bit better, but not even enough to explain how they're claimed to feel vastly superior.

But at the end of the day, the M is just a cost-saving measure, and I do agree with that. However, it isn't as black-and-white as people make it out to be.

Firstly, the case. If you can snatch a clean F, pat yourself on the back. It's thick, premium, and oozes with class. An M just can't compete.
However, when it's seen better days, the drawbacks of a painted and brittle case really start to show. When one of these is scratched, there's no turning back, it’s permanently marked. So we go for the next logical step and plan for a repaint. How likely are we to find the right paint of beige? How likely are we to recreate that texture from a spray can? Not everyone can afford to take it to a professional paint shop.

Model Ms have a thinner, more flexible plastic. You're not touching decades-old paint, you're touching the actual textured plastic. Scratches and marks blend in, and your nails feel dull against the surface. The cases of Ms may never be as expensive, but they’re much easier to clean back from a bad state. You can’t just buy a cheap rusty XT and expect it to look mint again from home.

Speaking of filthy keyboards, BS themselves are rather durable, and are pretty resilient to dirt and dust. That's the beauty of Model Ms: You don’t need a fresh, mint, NIB Model M to feel their smoothness. You can get a well-used one, have a good time, and clean it real good later on. Yet, for some reason, some people still go for the NIB ones for triple the price, expecting a factory-fresh experience, only to be surprised by the broken rivets, which brings me on to my next point.

Broken rivets. Big fucking deal. It baffles me how people shit on them, especially when they grab a thrown-around Model M for cheap, then complain about needing to mod it. A screw mod literally couldn’t be any simpler. It's arguably less daunting than dealing with half a dozen awkward clamps, and you don't have a rotten foam making a huge mess. With the right tools, you can even have some fun while you're at it.
Cracked barrel plates are also equally trivial. You could easily grab a ruined soldering iron (One that gets hot just enough to melt the plastic) and weld it back before it cracks any further. Do it on both sides, and it should be even stronger than stock.
-Plug to my own guide-

I'm sure everyone here has already used an obscure layout before, and the XT is no exception. It's not the worst, but if you're used to full-size layouts, you're gonna have a rough time for a few weeks. You'll need to get used to constantly num-lock on and off 24/7. I've gotten used to it eventually, but even still, using any shortcut-intensive program really sheds some light on the cramped layout. It could be negligible to an average person, but to someone who heavily relies on program-specific shortcuts, it's just not for me.

(Here is where I get ranty)

Now, apologies to all those who swear by their Fs, but some people really blow it out of proportion, and for what? I’ve seen people enjoy more-or-less taking piles of shit on Ms, as if they're trying to move on from an abusive relationship.

Why do we have to look down on the mainstream vintage board? Do we really need to feel superior because we’re using a hidden gem? Do we really need to praise the more exclusive keyboard, even if it means loathing on its popular brother, just to feel supreme? Did I miss the memo? I find it both funny and hypocritical.

Realistically, once you go to a Beamspring, there should be no reason to go back to an F unless you’re too much of a pussy to handle an unergonomic typing height/angle, too lazy to adapt a dated layout, or too broke to get a real man's keyboard. /s

But guess what? When you do, you won’t need to keep that F around anymore! Beamsprings are smoother, feel lighter, weigh heavier, and are built miles tougher than any F you can get! You can finally leave your past behind and accept your new status symbol as a superior being! Fs used to feel great, but now, they’re nothing more than just Happy Meal toys from McDonald's. Why use an F when a Beamspring is better in every single way? /s

And yet, this couldn’t be any further than the truth, because Beamsprings are glorified beyond all holy books and bibles combined.
Holy shit do people make them seem like sacred unicorns, bestowed upon us only by prophets, straight from heaven!
You press a key, and your life flashes before your eyes! You relive your childhood and all the decisions that led you to here, present time, right now, to nut your balls out with each key you press!
So you start levitating and see all that surrounds us in the Milky Way. I guess this is the moment where you meet God and enter heaven. Except... you realize that Beamsprings feel pretty identical to CBS, and that you’re awkwardly sitting with what is basically an oversized F with a solenoid.

Don’t get me wrong, Beamsprings feel amazing, but is it time to throw my Fs away? Are they now nothing more than just a disgraceful cost-saving measure, dropped out of IBM's asscrack, staining my collection? Ugh, so scratchy! Ugh, I can’t go back! Do Fs now feel like literal dogshit? It's rather delusional to assume so. Fs are a “massive downgrade”, sure, but they’re still “good enough” for us, and, regarding their price, we find them much more rational to buy instead. Sound familiar?

So why does everyone make Ms seem like the worst thing that ever happened to IBM?
How is it suddenly built like paper? Sure, Ms aren’t exactly all-metal, but I fail to see how that makes it vastly inferior like some people make it out to be. Ms are tough enough to a point where they’re already overkill for a daily driver. I mean, sure, a metal barrel plate will definitely survive a melee swing better, but at that point, who are you trying to impress?

Why do newcomers need to hear how an M is a piece of trash that’s built like a Cherry board? That’s a low blow, and a pretty pretentious one at that. It’s arguably one of the easiest vintage keyboards to own. What’s wrong with that? Does that make it suddenly worse? Are we too posh to mix our royal blood? How dare we bend our knees down to such filth! Why do we need to wave our dicks around, and shove this religion deep in their mouths?

Beginners making this jump to get an old, grumpy-looking keyboard are already taking a huge step, so why can’t we let them feel proud of it? There is way too much RGB gaming marketing bullshit nowadays that it’s a miracle that we even have a keyboard that beginners can approach, let alone one that some even consider end-game. (I know, no such thing exists, but I digress)

Yes, an F can be seen as a better keyboard, but Ms still fill an important role. Ms give us that F experience, just in a different flavor. A familiar layout, easier/cheaper to find, quieter sound, PS/2 port, and all for the cost of less metal and a slightly heavier BS. Does it matter that the barrel plate isn’t made out of pure American steel? No, it doesn't.

Some people treat keyboards like tools, while others wear them like jewelry. Of course, an F is, on paper, a better keyboard. It’s built better, weighs heavier, feels lighter, but not without drawbacks. The XT layout isn't exactly "familiar" (unless you spend twice as much for an AT or F122), converters go for around 40 bucks (unless you solder one yourself), and restoring one is just frustrating. Overall, a great keyboard for a project, but you need to put in time and effort before you start enjoying it.

An M is still a great keyboard, and it doesn’t take much effort to appreciate one. It’s why we find all the normies loving them. No new layouts, no expensive converters, they just got one and plugged it in. They didn’t need to adopt a new lifestyle just to enjoy a good keyboard. Who knows? It might be the keyboard that gets them into our hobby.

Those who are upgrading will naturally look for an F XT as their proud new project. While they're at it, can we please give them realistic expectations? Thank you.

By the end of it all, I can still see why someone would prefer an F, but it would take a fool to segregate the M as an outright inferior keyboard. You can't just say one is better than the other. One of them is a diva singing in the middle of an Opera stage, while the other is a cowboy wearing leather boots and walking into a bar. They shine on different days of the week, and it would be a shame to rule out any one of the two experiences.


TL;DR:
- People need something familiar when starting out, because they can't commit to a new lifestyle yet. That’s why we still recommend a trusty old Model M to them.
- However, for some reason, after they try out an F, they immediately loathe on Ms with all their hearts, almost religiously, and I don’t see why. The Model F is a better keyboard, sure, but it's not vastly superior by godly amounts.
- The switches are just a bit better, but how does that apparently make a Model M feel like ass?
- If the difference is supposedly day-and-night, then why aren't we buying Beamsprings instead?
Of course, it's because Model Fs are usually "good enough" for how much cheaper they are to buy. Likewise, some people find a Model M “good enough" for how much easier they are to adapt. (As in adapting one into their daily workflow, versus a Model F)
They bring the majority of your Model F for a fraction of the trouble, just like how Model Fs bring the majority of a Beamspring for a fraction of the cost. With this logic, isn't it a bit unfair to bash on Model Ms?
- I can see why someone would prefer a Model F, but I can’t see how that preference leads to so much M hate.

[SneakyRobb]

Model F is objectively better than beamspring in almost every single way. Not a hot take. It's just objectively true.

The jump from beam to f is one of the most big brain leaps ever in keyboards. The move from f to m was just a cost saving measure. I do not personally own an IBM model m but I don't not think it deserves the hate.

The main issue I have with the model m is just the mono upper plastic frame. It does not deserve the hate

[raoulduke-esq]

Who is shitting on M?

[fohat]

Impressive rant.

I will stick with my ANSI-modded 122-key Model F terminal because a beamspring is such a wrist-breaker.

And because my muscle memory demands that I stick with something close to the standard.

[Redmaus]

Nice rant, but I think the F keyswitch is way smoother, crisper, and just overall better than the model M in every way. It's also at the perfect weighting whereas the M is too heavy for my tastes and tires out my fingers.

Also the sound from an F is also 10x better in my opinion. The only M I use is my FSSK. And that's not technically an M anymore.

[an_achronism]

I enjoyed this but I can't totally relate to the "shitting on Model M" thing, perhaps because I'm still relatively new to this community. I definitely have seen people saying that the F is significantly better than the M, though.

I wish I could agree fully with the sentiment in this post but I unfortunately have found that I actually do very significantly prefer the F, and I wish that weren't the case, because the M is infinitely more accessible, and imo, I agree that it's also more user serviceable. The prospect of opening up my F122 frankly terrifies me, but I think it probably should have the foam replaced soonish because I got it from the Elecplus warehouse sale, so there's a solid chance there may have been water in it, however briefly. Comparatively, having bolt modded a 1990 Model M, I would very comfortably do that over and over again, and indeed I already have plans to basically custom build myself a nice M out of a mix of IBM and Unicomp parts, which will of course require another bolt job.

What I will agree with, very very cautiously, is that I had the opposite response with beam spring. Now bear in mind here that my entire experience typing on a beam spring keyboard is probably mere seconds, less than a minute, pushing keys on one that somebody else owned and had sitting in the boot of their car, so hardly ideal typing test conditions. But in terms of the difference between M, F, and B, I personally found the M -> F improvement much more striking than the F -> B improvement, which confused the hell out of me at the time. It might just be that I would need to sit with it on a desk and properly type for a few minutes to compare fairly, but I can't see that happening any time soon because I'm not made of money and they're simply too expensive nowadays. But I'm already building up quite a nice wee collection of Model F keyboards, so my interest in the M has diminished, which is a wee bit sad. That being said, I absolutely don't regret starting with the M first, partly because the difference between it and the other keyboards I'd used was absolutely massive, and I think the slightly stiffer key feel contributed quite a bit to that, so the impact was immense. I'd previously been using Cherry MX Blues for about 3 years and didn't much like them, so press a key on a Model M for the first time was quite something (in fact, you can see my reaction to this here hahah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUCdi2elbkY&t=232s). Buuut after using the M for a while, I started to feel like the keys were just a liiiiiittle bit heavier than I'd ideally like. So I sought out an F and tried it... and immediately fell in love.

So I suppose what I'd say is basically as follows:

• The whole "boo rivets" thing doesn't hold much water for me either, I would agree with you on that; quite enjoyed restoring my M
• I don't know I'd necessarily say that the key feel on the F is massively superior to the extent of blowing the M out of the water, but for me personally, that is the effect that it has. In other words, I think this has as much to do with my personal preferences as it does with whether the M/F are "good" or "bad". However, in my case, I feel like the difference is such that I feel very happy building up a nice wee collection of Model Fs to look after for the foreseeable future, and I'll probably still muck about with Model Ms here and there for fun but I don't imagine typing on one for any length of time on my main computer; I might be more inclined to use an M as an "out and about" board, but it isn't exactly portable, so I'd probably more likely use something like my Apricot Maxi-Switch DWS board, or some other smallish/lighter board with half decent rubber domes.
• I would still very much love a beam spring board for my collection, but I think this falls into "beige whale" territory for me at this point since typing on one did not have anywhere near the earth-shattering impact of typing on an F for the first time, or even on an M for the first time, in my experience.
• Despite my very clear preference for F, I would still recommend newbies try an M first. Not just because it's cheaper and more user-friendly to some extent, but also because the slightly heavier key feel might have a similar impression other newbies as it did with me (in a good way). The F might seem slightly more underwhelming because the keys are lighter, but longer term, I think that's a much more pleasing typing experience.

[Tritian]

yeah who's shitting on M's? I love my Model M's.

[Tritian]

Also, I wouldn't say F's are that much more smoother than M's. The trick to getting a smooth M is to use single-piece caps such as most Model F caps, later Model M caps, and Unicomp caps. All of which are much smoother in M barrels than the M two-piece caps...... IN MY EXPERIENCE.

Also, I'd like to say that while I love my Model M's and I prefer heavier switches, I still ultimately prefer Model F's... and specifically, the F AT which is heavier than a normal F.. for... some reason...

[raoulduke-esq]

All y’all done forgot plate spring is the lightest, smoothest IBM keyboard

[karlmartin95]

I use my beamfoot everyday for working, and I keep switching my Model F77, Bigfoot, 3178 and 122 so... I don't understand why people keeps complaining by layouts... I've never had a problem with that. (Software developer here)

In my personal opinion, Model Fs are 10/10 keyboards, the best of the world. Then, Beamsprings, 9,5/10 and Model Ms, 8/10.

[thefarside]

I haven’t heard or read anything about the M being worse than the F, but I prefer my New Model F77 and F AT (minus the heavy spacebar) over my IBM and Unicomp Ms.

For me personally I prefer the F’s lighter switch combined with the sound and my perceived extra tactility from both.

I like to use them all and appreciate the differences, so my home computer uses the F77, my work computer uses one of the Ms and my lab workstation uses a revolving alps board.

As an enthusiast I think it’s great that you can buy a new F or M, and that both are actively supported.

[thefarside]

Regarding the F being lighter than the M, is the F lighter because of the different flipper or does it use a lighter spring? I’d be interested in changing the springs if that was the main factor.

[Redmaus]

What I will agree with, very very cautiously, is that I had the opposite response with beam spring. Now bear in mind here that my entire experience typing on a beam spring keyboard is probably mere seconds, less than a minute, pushing keys on one that somebody else owned and had sitting in the boot of their car, so hardly ideal typing test conditions. But in terms of the difference between M, F, and B, I personally found the M -> F improvement much more striking than the F -> B improvement, which confused the hell out of me at the time. It might just be that I would need to sit with it on a desk and properly type for a few minutes to compare fairly, but I can't see that happening any time soon because I'm not made of money and they're simply too expensive nowadays.

I'd say the difference between beamspring and F is actually more different in feel than F and M. The model F's and model M's both have the same basic keystroke. But beamspring is an entirely different mechanism. The fly plate feels like breaking a very light eggshell on every downpress. But as far a quality typing goes, F beats them all. It feels great and unlike a few vintage boards it's very fast and easy to type on. I can't say the same for hall effect and beamspring keyboards(32xx series make this a lot better with the wrist rest), as while spherical keycaps are nice to type on and feel great it's not as efficient as cylindrical keycaps from my experience.

Impressive rant.

I will stick with my ANSI-modded 122-key Model F terminal because a beamspring is such a wrist-breaker.

And because my muscle memory demands that I stick with something close to the standard.

Pretty much this, model F is a very utilitarian keyboard

All y’all done forgot plate spring is the lightest, smoothest IBM keyboard

Yeah I have a black P70 keyboard(GE variant) and I can't seem to convert it. I fear it may be a controller issue.

I use my beamfoot everyday for working, and I keep switching my Model F77, Bigfoot, 3178 and 122 so... I don't understand why people keeps complaining by layouts... I've never had a problem with that. (Software developer here)

In my personal opinion, Model Fs are 10/10 keyboards, the best of the world. Then, Beamsprings, 9,5/10 and Model Ms, 8/10.

I'd agree with this, with model F's I can't really find a board that outright beats it in terms of overall usability, keyfeel, and build quality. That includes both categories, vintage and modern.

Beamsprings are very iconic and fun to type on, but they simply aren't as practical. The standard ANSI WKL PBT dyesub keycaps on an 4704/F122/Unsaver beats out the small shifts and limited bottom row on a beamspring.

Regarding the F being lighter than the M, is the F lighter because of the different flipper or does it use a lighter spring? I’d be interested in changing the springs if that was the main factor.

Its definitely the flipper. An FSSK feels more like an F than an M. To be strictly accurate it feels more like a hybrid of both.

[an_achronism]

I'd say the difference between beamspring and F is actually more different in feel than F and M. The model F's and model M's both have the same basic keystroke. But beamspring is an entirely different mechanism.

It might be more different, but I didn't feel like it was a more impressive difference, if that makes sense. As in, trying an M for the first time was a "holy crap" moment, then trying an F after that was a "holy CRAP", and then the beam spring was more of a "oh, that's nice I suppose", with the price discrepancy hanging out in the back of mind, wondering what the fuss was about.

[Weezer]

Who the hell is saying that a model m is a bad keyboard?

[Weezer]

a beamspring is such a wrist-breaker.

Using a beam spring actually forced me to pick my wrists off the desk and type properly without having them at a weird angle

[Weezer]

Model F is objectively better than beamspring in almost every single way. Not a hot take. It's just objectively true.

Ok bro

[Jacobalbertus1]

im capable of using all 3 of these keyboards but personally I daily drive a beamspring and don't think I am going back to the days of daily an m

[darkcruix]

I use keyboards with all three "switch types". I do like them all - in different ways. A Model M SSK is still on my desk ... for me ... it just feels not as crisp and distinct. When the Model F flipper hits the PCB it has a better tactile feedback and the sound is just right (in my ears).
All of it is obviously personal and subjective. I am definitely also biased, because I collect Model F keyboards. Many things in life, aren't measurable - like art.

[Weezer]

I just have a hard time taking anything OP has said so far seriously because no one is actually saying that the Model M is a bad keyboard. There's no hate. There's no one saying that a Model M is "built like a Cherry", and if there is they're certainly in an extreme minority. Many people just seem to prefer a Model F, that doesn't make the Model M a bad keyboard.

[Muirium]

I much prefer the SSK layout to my modified AT, let alone the oddball XT; which though my first mech I recently let go because, frankly, it just wasn't getting use. Layout matters too!

If I didn't have my Kishsaver, the SSKs would still be strong in my usual mix. But the OG really has it all. That zinc slab case brings so much character into the equation. And the layout is ideal. Lightly modified for HHKB navigation, as I insist.

Do I think Model Ms are the worst thing ever? Hardly. But thrashed Ms are pretty bad, and fixing them needs a lot of work. Kbdfr is absolutely right to train his Cherry loyalist guns on IBM's weak spot! Model Ms are fundamentally just less battle-hardened than classic Cherry boards, despite their rep. MX blacks are better after a beating than buckling springs. But it's not the whole story of the M. The layout is a substantial improvement over the AT. Only the Kishsaver equals it in the F family; and until the recent remakes, those were rare gems indeed.

Rants are all about reductio ad absurdum of course. I like being absurd, but I'm not as into the reduction part! The SSK is a classy all time classic board. I just wish I could upgrade my weak one with Model F guts as a few lucky people were doing a few years ago.

And honestly, if advising a newb today: I'd point them straight to Unicomp's new SSK. I have my doubts about its USB controller, and the bottom row annoys me, but other than that it's a fantastic advance in what they've been putting out this century in Kentucky.

[vincent]

I just have a hard time taking anything OP has said so far seriously because no one is actually saying that the Model M is a bad keyboard. There's no hate. There's no one saying that a Model M is "built like a Cherry", and if there is they're certainly in an extreme minority. Many people just seem to prefer a Model F, that doesn't make the Model M a bad keyboard.

Yeah, the OP reads like a shower argument. Pretty much nobody’s saying anything the OP has been arguing against. I keep and like all my keyboards. It’s like my watches—after getting my most expensive one, I didn’t just get rid of my other watches; I like all of them for different reasons and rotate through them. Same as loving wagyu but also lovin’ me some Big Mac from time to time.

And almost everything on the internet is exaggerated, so when you account for that, everything here seems mostly reasonable.

[Bjerrk]

I’ve never understood why we hate on Model Ms, of all keyboards, so damn much.
[...]
I can see why someone would prefer a Model F, but I can’t see how that preference leads to so much M hate.

This could have been an interesting thread, had the premise not been false.

Many of us here - even most, I'd wager - absolutely adore the Model M. That doesn't prevent anyone from saying that the Model F has certain advantages.

The usual viewpoint is that the Model M has the superior layout, while capacitive buckling springs are a somewhat nicer switch design.

No biggie.

[soyuz]

I was with you in theory up until you said beamsprings feel identical to capacitive buckling spring.

[Go-Kart]

Fujitsu Peerless rise up!

[Bitteneite]

Now that I've gotten some sleep, I do see how baffling the arguments I made were. I should've clarified that I was only speaking about a vocal minority, not everyone. I didn't do a good job with that, and I apologize for generalizing the ones who had nothing to do with this.

I do know that many people still love the Model M. That's great. I love a good one too, and I do rotate it often between the F and the Beam. It's just that I don't necessarily find myself considering any of them "vastly superior".

There are quite a few posts around making it seem so, as well as Discord posts.
Even when speaking about Model Ms in general, there's always someone who seemingly chimes in to remind us how he could never ever go back to a Model M. I ignored them for the most part, as I found all 3 IBM boards to be equally enjoyable in their own right.

Thing is, I recently read some of the threads that initially piqued my interest for Fs a few years ago, back when I was starting out.
Reading them now, I just find them misleading. I remembered my first time reading them, in contrast to my first impressions using an F. It didn't exactly line up, and it frustrated me as people seemed completely unanimous about how much better an F was.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18985
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=90350.0

I get that they might've been a bit satirical, and I do realize that most people are a bit more level-headed, but reading all of this a few years back, when all I had was a Model M, filled me up with unrealistic expectations that I don't think any vint board could satisfy.

I do agree and see how Model Fs are better, but I wish I could see it to the extent that those members make them out to be.
Like sure, they feel lighter, they might make for a potentially nicer experience, but I don't see them being that different. I enjoy both weightings, as I find them both to be equally fun to type on. It's a subtle difference that shows a lot more in the long run, but I never saw their tactility or smoothness to be any more or less refined.

I was using Beamsprings as an example of how there are people who made them seem literally incomparable to buckling springs, which I don't agree with.
My first time using a Beamspring was more of an "Oh, I could easily see how buckling springs came from this", rather than the "Woah, this is beyond words!" picture that people painted. Coming from an F, I didn't find them that different.
Some people will definitely prefer the Beams, definitely, but I don't think CBS are that far off. I know the mechanism is nothing alike, but they still feel like they're cut from the same cloth, if you get what I'm saying.
People could've very easily explained their keyfeel, but everyone seems to prefer glorifying them, for reasons I guess. (Just like how I exaggerated the hate against Ms) (How ironic)

A Model F is a great keyboard, easily an "end-game" to many people. I wasn't saying that an M is strictly better. I wasn't saying that CBS don't feel any different to MBS, I actually think that Fs just ooze with life inside them, but I was baffled by how far some people (again, not everyone) went to make M's seem dreadfully lifeless, dull, and disgracefully cheap. Again, some people, not everyone.

I apologize for being unclear and even misleading in my post. I generalized many people here, and I should've given my post many extra revisions before posting it here. It was hypocritical and ironic of me to exaggerate my post about other people exaggerating. I will do a better job clarifying them, and I'll tone my future posts down.

[Tribal]

[possibly very dumb question]

How does beamspring compare to holy panda -type switches? I have MBS, CBS, and HP, but no way to try beamspring without shelling out tons of cash. My understanding so far is “similar, but an order of magnitude better.”

[/ possibly very dumb question]

And yeah, Model F is amazing. Model M CAN be nearly as good, but it’s so much more hit-or-miss by 2021, whereas nearly every F is still great.

[raoulduke-esq]

Thanks for clarifying who you’re talking about because it really read like a straw man argument - especially around here. It’s still kind of a straw man here based on my experiences, guy from 3 years ago not withstanding. I could imagine a lot more folks talking like this on Reddit, but only before they went on to say how shit F and B are compared to the latest dessert-colored polyester blend holy rat covfefe soupios with a gasket mount. Sure, everywhere you go there will be insecure folks bragging about how what they have is better than what someone else has because they heard some Twitch “celebrity” say that it was, but a lot of folks here have more keyboards than pairs of socks and have a pretty good idea what they like and don’t like.

We’re always ready to debate on those points - points related to the boards and the feels and the preferences, so I don’t think that needs to be toned down, as long as we don’t get to the point where the thread is just a dumpster fire of personal insults like a certain recent thread was. Everyone has a preference and things that matter more than others. Some folks are ANSI or nothing. Others can pick up a different layout every day. Some folks have tried them all and prefer classic Cherry. And yes, there are probably one or two that go around bragging like a teenager telling everyone they’re well hung because they bought something generally prized by the community as though having made a purchase confers status.

I can personally understand you being disillusioned by the reality vs the hype surrounding these IBM variants. That’s how I feel about most of the MX clones. Click bar switches all feel the same to me except for weight. Linears sure as hell all feel the same except for weight - every single one has some scratch no matter which overpriced industrial lubricant was used on it. I cannot tell the difference between the grades of Krytox by feel. Tactiles - I feel a small difference between the box styles and the classic styles, but that’s about it. Some are more or less tactile. I do not feel the difference between the .005 degree change in angle on the tactile leg between one type and another. Some get more “tactility” simply by having more friction and being more scratchy. None are my favorite tactile switch and none that are described as feeling like Topre come anywhere close. I have never ascended through the purchase of any MX variant over another, nor do I feel I’m likely to. None have lived up to the hype of the hucksters sponsored to shill them on video or streaming platforms or the Redditvangelists who wax eloquent each week about how the newest thing they got that week is the best possible endgame and turns what they bought the week before into shit. I do not think that the rattling sound a can of spray paint makes when shaken is the perfect sound to which we should all aspire and try to avoid “sound test” videos because I already know that’s what I’m going to hear- just some plastic slapping on plastic. I generally do not prefer MX. I still own and periodically use all of the MX boards I’ve ever bought. Sometimes there’s a pain in my body that only a split ergo will soothe, but I don’t feel all the profound differences in switch/case/plate/lube that these other folks do. So- I come here where most folks prefer things besides MX and bask in the radiant warmth of the echo chamber I agree with and leave them to swap sliders and top housings in their own echo chamber. There may be an echo chamber out there somewhere that caters to the sensibilities of M champions.

You don’t feel the differences between M/F/B as profoundly as some of the others- fair point to make. We’ve gotten so far away from “hey- I like E.” “That’s cool- I like A”. “That’s cool- we both like keyboards.” A preference is a preference and no reason to shit on someone personally and it’s awful if you’ve been shit on for liking Ms to the point you have to rant about it. It can be fun to explore why a preference exists through discussion but trying to change someone else’s opinion (if based on real experiences) is a fool’s errand. The grandstanding is not as irritating as the shitting IMHO just because it’s fun to me when hobbies are positive and have a kinship. “Hey- I really like this and it excites me so I want to share how much I enjoy it” just comes off better than “This is garbage, this is shit, everything sucks except for me and what I have.” I’d rather be like “oh- I didn’t enjoy this as much a irrelevant video personality X did… oh well” than “oh wow… I really like this thing and irrelevant forum personality Y really hates it and says I’m stupid for liking it” but am confident enough to be comfortable with my own preferences regardless of what others say and know I won’t get either type to tone down their rhetoric just because I (irrelevant whisky-fueled pseudo-troll) didn’t have the same experience they did.

If anyone tells you their M is shit now that they bought an F- ask them to send it to you so you can give it a loving home. Otherwise, make like Tay-Tay and shake it off.

[hellothere]

> “Hey- I really like this and it excites me so I want to share how much I enjoy it” just comes off better than “This is garbage, this is shit, everything sucks except for me and what I have.”
I 100% agree with this.

> I’d rather be like “oh- I didn’t enjoy this as much a irrelevant video personality X did… oh well” than “oh wow… I really like this thing and irrelevant forum personality Y really hates it and says I’m stupid for liking it”
I'm going to use Chyros as an example.

Chyros has and had more keyboards than I will ever hope to have. So, if he's tried 50 Fs and says they're better than Ms AND I happen to like Ms, I'll see if I can find an F and determine which suits me better. I did ... and I determined I liked the Ms better.

It's kinda the same thing with Alps. Chyros and a lot of other folks on this forum REALLY like blue Alps. That made me want to buy a blue Alps keyboard. When I got one, I was underwhelmed. Blue Alps are a bit better than really early white Alps, but not by a ton.

FWIW, if someone asked me to recommend a mechanical keyboard, I'd probably tell them to get a Unicomp new M. ebay's not for newbies. I don't want to have to sit down and talk about plastic rivets and converters, etc.

[darkcruix]

> “Hey- I really like this and it excites me so I want to share how much I enjoy it” just comes off better than “This is garbage, this is shit, everything sucks except for me and what I have.”
I 100% agree with this.

> I’d rather be like “oh- I didn’t enjoy this as much a irrelevant video personality X did… oh well” than “oh wow… I really like this thing and irrelevant forum personality Y really hates it and says I’m stupid for liking it”
I'm going to use Chyros as an example.

Chyros has and had more keyboards than I will ever hope to have. So, if he's tried 50 Fs and says they're better than Ms AND I happen to like Ms, I'll see if I can find an F and determine which suits me better. I did ... and I determined I liked the Ms better.

It's kinda the same thing with Alps. Chyros and a lot of other folks on this forum REALLY like blue Alps. That made me want to buy a blue Alps keyboard. When I got one, I was underwhelmed. Blue Alps are a bit better than really early white Alps, but not by a ton.

FWIW, if someone asked me to recommend a mechanical keyboard, I'd probably tell them to get a Unicomp new M. ebay's not for newbies. I don't want to have to sit down and talk about plastic rivets and converters, etc.

That's exactly the point. Preference! Chyros has a preference and he is sharing his thoughts.
I have had multiple Beam Spring keyboards over the years and they are wonderful to type on, but the layout just doesn't suite me. My preference for a F77 is simply its layout, ability to adjustments, xwhatsit programability and its zinc alloy. Of course I like the switches, but it is the complete package - not just the switch.