PS/2 Keyboard for old PC with high KRO

[Mcin]

So, I'm reviving my oldie 2001 PC. It works, but usb keyboard do not give it a justice, it's not "the" style. And thus I decided to buy PS/2 ivory keyboard.

And, as I usually played with cheapest keyboards with 2 KRO I know what are the disadvantages of such setup and I simply decided to get something better this time. Unfortunately, finding info on which keyboard offers which KRO has proven to be much more troublesome than I thought, especially for keyboards form before gaming-flashy-mechanical fashion, as producers did not provide this info with mild exception of modern gaming keyboards which are out of scope. The scraps of information I managed to find suggest to look for the following, but each comes with its own shortcomings...

So, I'm looking for old or oldstyle QWERTY PS/2 keyboard, with:

- high KRO,
- full size
- standard shape
- 104 US layout or polish-programmers or anything that fits qwerty layout. I can leave with umlauts on the keys.
- with preferably "slim" enter. big-ass enter is acceptable, v-shaped one is a no-go
- preferably medium key height. , but I can leave with anything that is not ultra-flat.
- ivory color and retro look

Doesn't have to be mechanical. Honestly, I always had membraines, scissors or other cheap keyboards and I'm happy as it is not shitty quality and keys are being recognized. I only played with mechanics on the store shelves and from such short experience I'd probably be happiest with something silent and soft-force like MX clear.

I've been looking for it for quite some time (needles to say, it's not the first board I'm asking on) and well, most keyboards either have no info on KRO or are old mechanics with price way too high for me. What I got to know so far:

- Fujitsu keyboards from 90s - can't find exact model to look for, many were japanese only with strange layouts, and, uh, vertical enter. Usually, no KRO information available.
- Siemens keyboards - found only slight mention, can't find used or new on auction, needles to say, I don't know which model.
- Cherry G80 or G83 - closest match so far, however, either too expensive or can't find information. Here in Poland I most often find auctions with their cheapest membraine based keyboards, that most likely have low KRO.
- IBM Model F AT, there is a "restoration" project on the web, but >300$ for a keyboard, way too much for me.
- Chicony membraine keyboards, also sold under IBM brand - have reputation of solid ones, and I still have one and can confirm, but either 2KRO or no info. I founb mechanical NKRO on Ebay, but way too pricey for me.
- Zalman zm-k600s also looks promising, but lack of retro-look is a blocker here. That's my fallback plan if everything else fails.


So far the best source was this page:
https://member.keymusician.com/Help/Key ... eKeys.html

But then I stumbled upon deskthority wiki and I'm slowly going through it and check different models. As I'm constantly finding myself under the same three blockers: price, no KRO info, no sales option I decided to ask for help, which keyboard will meet my requirements, and meet my budget requirements. Let's say this Zalman zm-k600 is totally within range, but is it possible to find something from the epoch for below 100$? some unpopular, unrecognized model that I can look for in electronic scrapyards?

Also, as for the keyboards that are not marked on the wiki as NKRO I usually assume that no info means 2KRO, but refering to your experience, how possible is that soem entries on the wiki simply lack recognition at this point?

Little experience, high requirements, lot of questions. Hope to get a hand in here.

[XMIT]

Northgate Omnikey 101 would fit the bill. NKRO PS2 keyboard. Actual NKRO with diodes. Unsure if they turn up in Poland with any frequency.

Cherry G80 from this era usually don't have diodes and aren't NKRO. But with a replacement PCB like the GH80-3000 (if you can find one) it would do the trick.

The IBM Model M has like 3-4 key rollover. It depends heavily on which keys are pressed.

You could always get a Topre Realforce, they still come in beige.

[photekq]

Cherry G80 from this era usually don't have diodes and aren't NKRO. But with a replacement PCB like the GH80-3000 (if you can find one) it would do the trick.

Except for the G80-1000 series. NKRO is very commonly found there. And luckily, those do show up in Poland semi-regularly.

[SK-8K]

Something like this?

The current design I have re-uses the original membrane controller and thus doesn't have full NKRO. However I could design a new control board with a Sprintek controller and PCB with diodes (if there is enough demand maybe I could do a group buy for these, components are more expensive now!)



Still much better than my Leading Technology keyboard which has chronic ghosting problems while gaming.

[LambdaCore]

I know the Omnikey Ultra has full NKRO and has utterly fantastic complicated white alps, though if you want something cheaper earlier Focus FK-2001s have some rollover advantages, it's not full NKRO but it often beats my USB based Matias board that technically has NKRO and is just subject to inherent disadvantages with USB.

That all said, with the focus board I mentioned, I feel like that might be a good cheap option so long as you ensure it's an earlier model with complicated white alps. Make sure when you buy you see the switches themselves, look for slits as some of the markings and logos can be hard to spot in photos, and lastly: go winkeyless, always.

[Muirium]

…it's not full NKRO but it often beats my USB based Matias board that technically has NKRO and is just subject to inherent disadvantages with USB.

The disadventages are "inherent" to Matias. Not USB. USB supports full NKRO. But many keyboard makers choose not to bother with it, because they have no respect for their users.

Being a Mac guy, every NKRO board I use connects by USB. If USB had limited rollover, that would be the universal choke-point for every last one of my keyboards. But it is not!

Anyway, that said, OP's likely wise to stay clear of USB keyboards of the era, seeing as they're not at all interested in a nice Realforce.

[LambdaCore]

The disadventages are "inherent" to Matias. Not USB. USB supports full NKRO. But many keyboard makers choose not to bother with it, because they have no respect for their users.

Being a Mac guy, every NKRO board I use connects by USB. If USB had limited rollover, that would be the universal choke-point for every last one of my keyboards. But it is not!

Anyway, that said, OP's likely wise to stay clear of USB keyboards of the era, seeing as they're not at all interested in a nice Realforce.

Huh, fascinating! I'd heard it was an issue with USB itself, that's a real shame! Albeit, I couldn't imagine needing more than 6KRO as is, that's still a huge shame. As for Topre boards, I'd looked into getting one myself, it's just so unfortunate they're so expensive... especially for a rubberdome board, it's hard to know if you'll like them since they're so divisive.

[Muirium]

The nerdy details are in the link. USB supports full NKRO but PC BIOS does not, so USB keyboards also have a 6KRO boot mode specifically to support plunking around in there. Good keyboards then switch into full NKRO outside of BIOS, bad keyboards… stink up USB's name with their own laziness!

People get similarly hung up on the "rubberdome" side of Topre. The capsense is what makes the difference. You aren't mashing those things down to squeeze a desperate contact spot from membranes beneath them. That's shite keyboards, that is! Again, a reputational namespill. Or peeing in the punchbowl, as it were!

[LambdaCore]

To be fair, the confusion is understandable given the price. I can't just go out and buy a cheap topre board and see if I like it, same for the OP for that matter, it'd be sick as hell if I could though!

[Muirium]

Define cheap. Good boards just aren't as cheap as they used to be, when less people were in this racket.

Topres have never been cheap, of course, but the £128 I spent on a new in box HHKB the other week feels reasonable to me. That's a board I know I love, of course, and will use like hell! But at that price, you wouldn't lose much or anything, selling it on if it didn't win you.

[LambdaCore]

Cheap, to me, is closer to the 50 dollar range when it comes to keyboards, but you can get most I've gotten cheaper if you're smart about it. However, you're also able to get switch testers and what not, which aren't foolproof and is NOT representative of having the switch inside a board, it does give you more of an idea on what you're getting into.

In terms of reselling, you could! But that takes a lot of time and does always come with the risk of not exactly making that money back. It also doesn't help that a switch like Topre is divisive, it's not like SKCM White Alps or Bucking Springs where just about everyone who have tried them tend to enjoy it, or at least get why most people do at that, combined with some decent condition boards for both going for the 40 - 60 price range if you're patient made it a very easy purchase for me.

Additionally I've heard people mention alternative dome with slider switches that generally feel like less refined topre, but even then most people who do like Topre tend to disagree with most comparisons to other done with sliders so... it's hard to say. I'm still personally always looking for anything I can get my hands on, Topre included, as I wouldn't mind spending 70+ myself as at the very least I'd find it interesting.

[Muirium]

Topre's not as "divisive" as all that. Trolls aren't the ones whose opinions matter, especially when selling.

For what it's worth: I hold Topre in much higher regard than Model M. Most buckling springs, especially Unicomp's, just aren't up to much. Model F is a whole other story, the difference between M and F being as night and day as complicated Alps vs. Matias switches. There's a *lot* of differences between all of these.

Another thing to bear in mind with Topre is you get a classy set of caps and chassis. Looking at those Bluetooth Niz boards—and suspending my WTF-grade disbelief about the seminal name!—the layouts and the caps both put me off. Now, if they were £50 boards like you say, I'd be much more tempted. But they're HHKB money!

[LambdaCore]

Yeah, the Niz boards aren't very interesting to me lol. Why would I splash Topre money on budget Topre switches? Now, I'm not particularly fond of the HHKB layout, at least from the look of it (could never get used to most 60% boards either) but the Realforce keyboards look fine by all means. As for the Model M, my experience is limited as I've only used blue badge Ms and Unicomps, though I've enjoyed using all of them I DO think complicated alps has them beat, at least from what I've used.

[Bjerrk]

Opinions are a dime a dozen, famously, but even that seems to over-estimate their going rate by about a cent a piece.

I own nice Blue Alps SKCM boards, Model F and IBM Model M keyboards, but I type on a Unicomp Model M every day. A great keyboard that I never seem to get tired of.

Topre, on the other hand, haven't caught my fancy yet.

(That only counted for two opinions, so you've still got 10 to go on your dime!)

[Bjerrk]

Speaking of NKRO, I'm guessing foil and foam keyboards must have it. E.g. BTC F+F.

[wobbled]

Speaking of NKRO, I'm guessing foil and foam keyboards must have it. E.g. BTC F+F.

Yep they should have inherent NKRO

[Muirium]

Opinions are a brass bit, apiece. Preference, meanwhile, is valueless. I mean priceless! But I also mean valueless.

I know plenty of people love Model M. I’ve used a really nice condition early silver badge Model M, which was alright, but they only went downhill from there. Model F is so much better it’s a kick in the stomach when you first try a good one for yourself. That M you loved? Kiss that relationship goodbye.

I missed out that experience by starting with F and only finding M later. (The way IBM users might have back in the 80s.) M was very clearly for “Meh.” Love the layout, though. It’s not all bad. Just bad in the feels, which is paramount when you’re into all of this.

[Bjerrk]

Model F is so much better it’s a kick in the stomach when you first try a good one for yourself. That M you loved? Kiss that relationship goodbye.

Wait, did you read my post?

I own both Ellipse's F77 repro and IBM Model Fs, but I still use a Unicomp Model M daily No farewell kiss there.

[Muirium]

Preferences.

I’ve certainly seen it happen in other people. One touch of F and their Unicomp is eFed!

But we do, right enough, differ enough subjectively to prevent the entire keyboard realm collapsing into a quantum state consisting purely of Kishsavers. I mean, every single one of us knows certain humans who aren’t “into keyboards” at all, who no amount of exposure to strong IBM sources will convince to replace their risible plastic bag of chiclet mush with something “good.” Humans are lousy experimental controls!

[wobbled]

I go through phases consisting of only Topre, Model M, and Model F. Both variants of buckling spring and Topre blow any competition away for me and I still enjoy the heavier feel of an M vs an F when I'm in the mood for such a thing.

[hellothere]

> Fujitsu keyboards from 90s - can't find exact model to look for, many were japanese only with strange layouts, and, uh, vertical enter. Usually, no KRO information available.

I think you're referring to Fujitsus with leaf springs. Some keyboards did have diodes for each "switch," so I'd assume that's NKRO. Do note that there's at least one KB that had both a diode and non-diode option. I have at least three FLS keyboards, but I wouldn't sell them at $50 to $100 ... and one has an 8 pin DIN and another has 12 pin, so you'd still need some sort of adapter.

Regarding Topre, yes, they are rubber domes, but are way better than any membrane or "standard" rubber dome keyboard. Also, I like the Abko k935p enough that my Topres are now sitting on a shelf.

The BTC dome/slider feels enough like Topre that you can see why people compare them to each other. I'd recommend checking to see if they have NKRO. I have two BTCs, but I'm not sure where they are, ATM, so I can't test.

[Bjerrk]

I go through phases consisting of only Topre, Model M, and Model F. Both variants of buckling spring and Topre blow any competition away for me and I still enjoy the heavier feel of an M vs an F when I'm in the mood for such a thing.

^ This is what a healthy diet looks like!

[Muirium]

Fried Mars bars, chips, ginger and HHKB.

(Only some of those are true.)

[Palatino]

I own nice Blue Alps SKCM boards, Model F and IBM Model M keyboards, but I type on a Unicomp Model M every day. A great keyboard that I never seem to get tired of.

Topre, on the other hand, haven't caught my fancy yet.

Another ha’penny preference for the mix: I own those same things you mention, but most often reach for the Space Invaders. It’s such a satisfying chunk of a switch, and the space bar is perfect - all lying under a perfect blanket of PBT. Damped Alps on the AEKII are similarly gorgeous. Topre I love too. It may just be the PBT! Is there a bad board with PBT keycaps? (Genuine question).

[Palatino]

I own both Ellipse's F77 repro and IBM Model Fs, but I still use a Unicomp Model M daily No farewell kiss there.

Would you ever sell your F77 then? I’ve got an itch for one developing, but don’t want to wait however long it would take if I ordered one now.

[Muirium]

Wifeswap already, it’ll be fun!

Is there a bad board with PBT keycaps? (Genuine question).

Damn good question, actually. Worst feeling switches under PBT caps for me were Acer. This very keyboard. The caps remain the most “pumice” textured I’ve encountered. Thin and high pitched, but so ooooh rough to the touch. Always meant to harvest them for some real Alps action. The rollover on that thing was as craptrastic as the Acer crunch.

After that, it’s Model Ms. Bad boards? Nah. But nowhere near as blessed as so many more with that illustrious distinction.

[zrrion]

People tend to over dramatize the differences between model Ms IMO, there's really only really 3 different eras of M production that could be told apart just from feel alone and I'd give a nickel to anyone who names all 3. From IBM until unicomp they're all roughly the same until Unicomp's tooling age started to show, then they made some stinkers for a while, now they're back to making boards that are very nice. People will talk about case weight and backplate thickness until the cows come home but that's stuff that only effects the feel/sound in small ways. Whichever you like in all that is preference, anyone who says otherwise is a goober.

[Muirium]

(And how knackered their rivets are. A sympathetic bolt mod will settle that injustice.)

[Palatino]

Worst feeling switches under PBT caps for me were Acer.

If that’s the worst, it’s a pretty good worst. I quite like Acer switches myself: I went through a phrase (or am I still in it? I don’t know) of collecting all the different case designs of 6312, so I’ve tried a fair few. When they’re in tip-top condition, typing is pretty nice I find. Plus very cleanable if they’re not. And mmmm yes, that pumice… perfect for the sweatier-fingered amongst us.

[Bjerrk]

People tend to over dramatize the differences between model Ms. From IBM until unicomp they're all roughly the same until Unicomp's tooling age started to show, then they made some stinkers for a while, now they're back to making boards that are very nice. People will talk about case weight and backplate thickness until the cows come home.

Yeah, completely agree. Unicomp were a bit subpar for a while, but I'm just glad they're back.

Acer switches are nice, btw!